Barth's picture

    Wins and Losses

    There will be more from this corner this weekend, but it would be worth hearing from those who share my general views about these things:

    1. A “movement” built on the votes of young people will never succeed, since young people tend to vote for personalities before governmental operations and outlook and will not stick to it.

    2. The President was right to get what he could when he could get it. There would be no chance for health care reform if it was not done in 2009/2010.

    3.  Those who want a purer Democratic Party without blue dogs have gotten much of what they wanted.  The price for it are committee chairs such as Joe Barton and Darrell Issa. Maybe next time we could be a bit more tolerant of dissenting views.

    4.  On the other hand, Democrats who tried to pretend they were Republicans were beaten by real Republicans.  So many parts of President Kennedy’s famous inaugural often float through our heads, but today this line has new resonance:  “remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside”

    5.  We are not a majority of voters in this country.  We may be a majority of those who could vote, but that has no bearing on elections.  Haters always vote against what they hate.  Democrats often insist on complete agreement with a candidate before they can bring themselves to go to a polling place.

    6.  The President is a black man, at least for all intents and purposes.  That he is the best president since, at the latest January 19, 1969 should transcend the racism inherent in this country is so, but it has not.  See haters comment, above.

    Comments

    I don't even know what I am doing here today, Barth. I just have no place else to go. I am so sad that this is my America. That this is what my fellow citizens want. I watched very little of the returns - it just hurt too bad to see the smirks on their faces. There were a few bright spots. They didn't win it all. But they won enough. I wonder if those who stayed home realize what they've done. Or maybe they just think it doesn't matter who is in power, we're screwed no matter what. Maybe they are right.

    Speaker Boehner. That says it all. Welcome to America, home of the not-so-free and the selfish. Yay for us!


    Stilli. Every thing I'm seeing indicates not many people "stayed home" ... certainly not the liberal activists you seem to be referring to. It might be comforting to try and pin this on the faction within your own party you have been programmed over the last two years to attack (by the same people who really lost this election for you BTW)  ... but I don't see much emperical beyond a good case of the bitters to support doing so.

    Be mad. Be disappointed. But be honest about what really just happened.


    We're apparently not reading the same stuff, kgb...my understanding is that a whole mess of people stayed home (I wasn't referring to liberal activists)...nowhere did I see the tremendous lines of people waiting to vote that we saw in '08. And yes, I understand that many fewer people traditionally vote in the mid-terms. But I find it hard to believe that with so much at stake, they did it this time.

    Additionally, a whole bunch of people who did vote, cut their noses off to spite their faces. To me, that is just stupid.

    I am open to the suggestion that this may be a blessing in disguise, if it causes the dems to pull their heads outta their butts and get serious about jobs. But, I'm not holding my breath.

    As far as honesty is concerned...a disagreement doesn't necessarily mean one of the parties is being dishonest.


    1. A “movement” built on the votes of young people will never succeed, since young people tend to vote for personalities before governmental operations and outlook and will not stick to it.

     

    Thank you! It's funny, I just said basically the same thing over at Yglesias, and got some clueless responses about what I said:

    http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/11/the-changing-electorate/#comme...

    I swear, my respondents must be young people! Tongue out Yglesias himself, gives the headline there as if it it never happened before that the youngsters didn't turn out for the mid-terms.  Some important things to always remember about mid-terms: retired people aren't working, they're retired! They often read the newspaper more than they used to, and  have time to think about the stuff they learned over a lifetime, and they go and vote in races that working and younger people don't find inspiring. And some things younger people may not like about them--they are not as passionate about things as they used to be, but at the same time, they are not real patient about gviing politicians, or anyone for that matter, more time to produce results--after all, they are going to die soon. And furthermore, those youngsters building the movements are most likely going to be just like them when they retire-with their original views moderated, and a bigger faith in the power of actually voting individual "bums" in or out depending upon their performance rather than their promises or ideology.


    It's because you made those comments to resident troll Don Williams over at Yglesias.  He's a complete loon.


    When you know the names of the resident trolls over there, I'd say you're spending waaaay too much time over at Yglesias Li'l Shoppe of Horrors.

    It's not good for you.

    Now, I know you say you only go trolling as much as the next guy, but the next guy happens to be ME today, and I never go to Yglesias.

    So. Time to quit. No more trolling or counter-trolling over at Matty's. It's a new day.

    And no, you can't go over to Greenwald's house.


    Don't worry about me and Greenwald; i've been banned from commenting over at Salon since the primaries in 2008.


    I like that: the quiet pride in a job well done.

    However. Your envy of Don Williams was also noted.

    "The complete loon," Brew commented wistfully, "Don's got it all. Bad spelling. Poor hygiene. Matching socks, sure, but never worn on the feet. And conspiracy theories about things you're not even sure occurred. Like the assassination of Freddie Prinze by Pat Moynihan, to stop Prinze's potential run for his NY Senate seat. I mean... I didn't even know Freddie Prinze was DEAD! How do you beat that? I mean, that's just QUALITY looning. Don is... he just is...*sigh*... the complete loon."


    1. A "movement" built on the votes of young people will never succeed, as long as total morons follow up a successful Presidential win by eliminating the primary organizational apparatus used to mobilize young people. And after that, work as hard as possible to turn "change" into something we could pretend red-meat Republicans might believe in, rather than work to fulfil the actual desires of actual young people who turned out to vote for us.

    2. The President was right to get what he could. He seemed to forget there's an enormous political value in fighting for something and not getting it, and let the other guys show they're on the side of the rich and powerful and politically unpopular.

    3. Maybe next time we could be a bit more tolerant of dissenting views. Because it's important to have "Democrats" who vote against us, issue after issue, and then run attack ads against us. Sweet.

    4.  On the other hand, Democrats who tried to pretend they were Republicans were beaten by real Republicans.

    5.  The majority of voters - in the face of Democratic compromise and half-heartedness, and Republican foaming-at-the-mouth-fervour - failed to vote. Jeeez. I wonder what else we could try?

    6. The President is a black man. He also is - without question - the best president since, ahhhhh, Bill Clinton. Beyond that, it's still all to be debated. We're only 2 years in. 


    A "movement" built on the votes of young people will never succeed, as long as total morons follow up a successful Presidential win by eliminating the primary organizational apparatus used to mobilize young people. And after that, work as hard as possible to turn "change" into something we could pretend red-meat Republicans might believe in, rather than work to fulfil the actual desires of actual young people who turned out to vote for us.

    One of the things that interested me about Obamamania among young people was that I wondered how liberal politically many of them were. I always had the suspicion that instead the case was that many of them liked his post-partisan post-racial shtick as well as falling for his charisma. I also suspected many young Obama fans had no loyalty or even interest in the Democratic party. I had no proof and still don't, beyond knowing many grew up as fans of the type of cynicism as illustrated by The Simpsons, where liberalism was gored as often as conservatism. And also that I saw the Obama campaign purposefully build an organization that was outside of and independent of the Democratic party.

    I never followed my suspicions up with further research. But this anecdotal in this New York Times piece today definitely caught my eye:

    Even at the student union at Ohio State University, young voters were more preoccupied with the economy than with war or social issues.

    “I’ve got to find a job, and the way it’s going I don’t know that I’m going to,” said John Breedlove, 22, a business student who supported President Obama in 2008 but backed Republicans on Tuesday.


    I know where Jon Breedlove can get a job being all that he can be. Maybe I could get a finders fee.


    hah, good one!


    Arta, it often seems to me that you have an absolutely clearcut take on who Obama is (which, apparently, anyone who'd read his books would know); on how young people think (fanboys who fell for Obama's schtick, and charisma); America is a liberal country; etc. 

    Why this surprises me is that you're also someone who insists on studying, and close readings, etc. 

    The young people, for instance. You throw out a view that the Simpsons was cynical, and a quote from a BUSINESS STUDENT at Ohio State.

    So what if I said that the facts are absolutely, crystal clear, in poll after poll, that young people's political attitudes are the MOST LIBERAL of any age group?

    Will that matter to you? Or will you just wander on, happy to not have bothered researching it, but just finding that... it fits so WELL with your other views?

    http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Produc...

    I'm happy to debate differences in political versus social liberalism (I think social liberalism has run miles out ahead on the core issues of race and sex), or how useful liberal vs conservative is (pretty much useless, I'd say, though grand for commenting on blogs!), or what the best mechanisms are to weld these young people to the Democratic Party... but just for starters, I think this sort of poll - above - has to be taken on-board.

    Doesn't it?


    Well, you can take it on board if you want to. But unless you ask every respondent to define "conservative", "liberal", and "moderate" ... it is really just taking up space.

    IMO, the only way to really gauge a person's true ideology is to dispense with the buzz-phrase labels that were flogged of any meaning years ago by a political punditry that exists to define and redefine labels with the intent to get people to embrace/flee the political party generally associated with them. Instead, you've really got to look at how they respond on specific policy questions. Let's face it, the teabaggers are the antithesis of truly conservative - they are tear-down-the-gates radicals. At what stage does continuing to use meaningless words become farce?

    And for the record, when polled on specific policy ... time and time again, progressive policy is preferred by American voters - often by an overwhelming majority. We can't really judge if providing progressive solutions would be an election winner - because we've never actually seen them implemented to test the theory out. But they DO poll well - the Public Option started in the 70s and even after "death panels" and all that nonsense was still preferred by the majority in most polls and never scored lower than a plurality on any. Americans do indeed tend to be liberal -  it takes a LOT of money, marketing, dishonesty and fear mongering to convince them otherwise ... and it requires constant reinvestment for each and every issue that comes up to keep the numbers manageable. If we were really conservative, why would the corporations have to pour so much money onto every issue? Wouldn't we naturally reject progressive ideas with little prompting if that were the case?

     


    Hmmm. Not 100% sure but I think I misread your comment a bit. This was sort of couched as a dissent, but ... if appropriate, consider it a somewhat non-sequiturial supporting comment.

     


    No problem, we're agreeing. 

    Now, as long as you've given up that Bill Moyers fetish of yours.... ;-)


    Totally OT, kgb999, but I am impressed with your call for Reid and the knowledge and analysis that went into it when not many others were predicting a win for him.    


    Thanks. :-)


    Counterpoint:

    1. Exactly. That's why the decision to focus on these voters during the midterms - when a personality that may motivate them wasn't even on the ballot - was an exercise in vanity bitterly protested by many of the most experienced members of the Democratic caucus. Actually, that's being too kind. It was really an exercise in burnishing Obama for 2012 at the expense of winning in 2010. Obama's team dominated the strategy and used the resources to cultivate voters that help him in 2012 instead of the voters that help embattled congresspeople in an off year.

    2. I agree the president was right on timing. He was wrong to cut a bunch of back-room deals. He was EXTRA wrong to make public statements after the deals were cut pretending as if the policy he had traded away might still be possible .... if only it weren't for this garsh-darned Senate. He cut the deals - he should have taken the lumps, gotten it done quickly and moved to working on the economy. Instead he spent month after month trying to hide his involvement and launder his deals through the Senate, again to burnish his own prospects at the expense of the party ... many of those who were forced to carry his water are not in congress today as a result of him passing the buck.

    3. False frame. Indeed the Blue Dogs were hung on their own petard. But it was the independents who hung them, not those wanting a "purer" Democratic party. The numbers don't support your assertion here unless you are just criticizing people who overwhelmingly voted yesterday *and* stuck with Democrats for expressing frustration. For an explanation of what really happened, see #1 and #2.

    4. Exactly right. Screw Republicans running as Democrats. If they don't want to be Democrats, at least we can elect Republicans who's policy is the same but they embrace it with honesty instead of advancing it through deceit. Those urging a move even farther right in the name of "centrism" would do well to get this reality through their cro-magnon skills. Problem is that they know it full well and are getting paid, paid, paid to sell their nonsense to those who stroke their own egos with the belief that embracing a carefully nuanced relativist argument for the least-worst is a sign of intellect that mere rubes could never understand.

    5. I don't know who this "we" you refer to is. A majority of voters in America are against gutting social security, supported both the public option and national exchanges ... and medicare buy in! The majority of voters don't like NAFTA. Don't want corporatist Wall Street to run roughshod over our economy and support annual audits of the Federal Reserve. In short. The majority of Americans support progressive policy. The only way you are a "we" that is not in tune with the majority of voters is if you promote politicians who actively undermine these things. Barack Obama is one such politician and if you look where he poured his energy ... especially in the primaries ... it was to promote other politicians who also undermine these things. This created the impression that as a group Democrats couldn't be trusted. After that threshold was passed nuance became irrelevant. Even those who have honestly fought for these things their whole careers were painted with the brush of broader Democratic weakness and dishonesty, typically personified in Obama. Those who hate were completely empowered this cycle, but it took a LOT of work on the part of some Democrats (and a lot of money invested by corporate interests fully ensconced in both parties) to empower them. And please spare me the "Then HOW could they vote for republicans who are even WORSE on these things?!?!" canard of idiocy and see #4.

    6. Indeed the President is a black man. To me, what that represents in light of our national struggle with race is a wonderful symbol for America and for the rest of the world. But the color of a man's skin doesn't make the man. Obama is a terrible, terrible president.

    As you may have guessed. I pretty much disagree completely with this entire post. You guys need to stop pretending your shit don't stink and start cleaning your outhouse. You aren't powerless, you are paralyzed. And while you are at it, hose down your damn president ... he reeks of swimming in the cesspool.

     


    Patty Murray V Dino Rossi will be announced in moments.. the current count, Patty leads by 14,000 votes, sooo... I'll let you all know soon who wins, but I am betting it is Patty Murray.


    If nothing else Barth, you consistently reflect the common wisdom in the Washington you inhabit and which the nation, on a birpartisan basis, loathes.

    I recognize your well meaning intent, but your viewpoint is a perfect recitiation of the viewpoint of the Washington common wisdom. Following that line of reasoning has only led to one disaster after another for Democrats and each worse than the last.

    Nothing personal, but if we lost every single Washington staffer, consultant, politico, lobbyist, elected official and power broker the nation would be better off.  Our capitol city stinks to high heaven all the way out here in flyover country because it is a festering cesspool of corruption and the Democrats stink every bit as bad as the Republicans do.  Nothing anyone (with a very few exceptions) inside the beltway says is worth listening to.   Inasmuch as the ruling elite have completely discredited themselves over the past decade at every level it is a wonder that anyone who lives and works in Washington has the gall to show their face in public. 

    This nation has suffered what may prove to be a fatal economic blow and the fat, happy courtiers of both parties and those who make their living servicing them proceed along their merry way as though they have any insight into what is happening in our country, care that the nation is falling to pieces or have any intention of doing anything to relieve the suffering of tens of millions who have lost their jobs, their homes, their communities and any hope for a prosperous stable future.

    The self righteous Democrats of DC who have, for decades now, whored themselves to the rich every bit as much as their Republican playmates have no more in common with regular Americans than the man in the moon.  That you would continue to imply the laughable lie that those on the left who dared criticize the foolish and self defeating actions of the naive, weak Corporate Democratic President are responsible for the flight of independents from his side demonstrates pretty conclusively how out of touch with reality you and the others who push this fantasy really are.

    If it weren't for the left, you who live inside the beltway would have gotten no support at all... anywhere.

    It was the President's lies and his failure to deliver on any of his main campaign promises that led the independents to abandon Democrats up and down the line (not just on the federal level) in frustration at Obama.  The falsehood that criticism from the left caused the problem is so absurd it's beyond belief.  If a person really believed that crap they'd also have to believe that if only everyone had just not said anything negative then the independents wouldn't have noticed that Obama double crossed them on any number of things and refused to even attempt to deliver on many others.

    The real problem we have to address here is the fifith column in the Democratic Party that neither believes in Democratic solutions to our problems nor is willing to support those policies when it matters.  I am delighted to see the blue dogs taken out and I pray that the House Democrats at least light a fire under their asses and actually start being more partisan and ideological.  It's about friggin time our side joined the fight instead of passively standing by and being the punching bags of the right wing extremeists.

    That you think Obama is the best President since LBJ is just amazing.  Wow! Whatever is in the kool aid must be good stuff.


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