Kaepernick Part II

    A recent discussion on Colin Kaepernick's inability to find employment in the NFL swiftly divided into two camps. One group saw the Kaepernick ban in the tradition of other black athletes who faced punishment for speaking out against injustice. Tommie Smith and John Carlos were punished for raising their fists at the Olympics. Ali was stripped of his heavyweight championship for refusing to serve in Vietnam. For the first group, Kaepernick received similar pushback as Ali, Smith, and Carlos. All were accused of disrespecting the country. 

    The other group could not separate the discussion from Kaepernick's feelings about a worthless political system. Kaepernick was advised to go along to get along in the NFL. The disrespect for country was a deal breaker. 

    Today I witnessed John McCain, recently diagnosed with glioblastoma multiforme, came to the floor of the Senate to cast a vote that would mean millions of people would lose health care coverage. McCain did this despite having his surgery at Mayo Clinic Scottsdale paid for by the government. McCain voted to make denial of healthcare the thing that will go on his tombstone. Senator did this for a President who laughed at McCain's time as a prisoner of war. McCain may have been a man of honor at one time. McCain is now a man who went along to get along. Kaepernick has more honor than McCain.

    Jefferson Beauregard Sessions was an early and vigorous supporter of Donald Trump. Today Donald Trump says that if he knew that Sessions would recuse himself from the Russia investigation, he wouldn't have hired Sessions. Trump criticizes Sessions on a daily basis. Beauregard does not have enough self respect to resign. Sessions goes along to get along. Sessions has less integrity than Colin Kaepernick.

    Trump humiliated Mitt Romney during the Primaries, but Romney came running like the lapdog he is when Trump dangled the possibility of Secretary of State. Romney was left at the altar. Trump humiliated Chris Christie, Paul Ryan, and now the entire Republican membership of Congress. None of Tahoe humiliated have the courage of Colin Kaepernick.

    Money and power are enticing. Self-respect is better.



    Peracles in the 3rd camp felt that:

    1) yes Kap was likely treated unfairly as analyzed by 538, but considering he voluntarily opted out of his contract, and that the NFL has few starting slots available, and the decision about leadership/playing skills/team needs/synergies/etc is quite complex, it's hard to definitively prove bias and harder to rally people around the cause. Ali, Smith & Carlos all had explicit punishments tied to their specific actions, whereas Kap's were possibly related to his protest's effect on attendance.

    2) The public turnoff *may* have been as much from perceived insult to a pre-game prayer (US & its fixation on religion, you know) vs. racism re: Kap's message of "stop runaway police abuse of blacks". Of course nothing is ever simple, so it may have been both. Polls won't give a definitive answer either.

    3) Kap's anti-Hillary statements didn't help sympathy for his cause from the liberal camp - at least ones that supported the Democratic nominee - that otherwise was very supportive.

    Ignoring McCain's service fifty years ago, no, I don't think any of the Republicans have been very honorable or shown courage, Susan Collins perhaps being the exception? We went through this multiple times with McCain over the years - he's largely self-serving, ornery, a bastard, and has awful policy positions, but has a bit useful as a Trump counterpoint of late. Even yesterday's vote wasn't as awful as presented, in that it gave the GOP room to debate their awful options rather than approving any particular awful option.

    Very good article. I appreciate your ability to connect these seemingly dissimilar issues. Moral consistency matters. I was so fed up with John McCain lecturing the Senate about doing the right thing after doing the wrong thing. He blew golden opportunity to practice what he preached. 

    Thanks Danny.

    Sessions is behaving like people want Kaepernick to behave. Bend over and take the abuse. If Sessions was a man of integrity, he would resign. The argument against Sessions leaving is that Trump would use the opportunity to fire Mueller. It is better for Sessions to leave now and let Trump do his worse. 

    Was Kaepernick courageous or stupid. It's clearly a matter of opinion. I don't care at all for symbols. I feel absolutely zero attachment to any of them. I've never understood why people feel so passionate about their symbols, the flag, the national anthem, the cross, etc. But they do. When anyone disrespects their symbols no matter what the reason they will react negatively against the person and likely the cause they represent. It always seemed to be counter productive to me, rather than moving people toward your position the offensiveness of your action will tend to move them away. In Kaepernick's case BLM is now associated with disrespect for the national anthem and the patriotism the song represents in the mind of many Americans.

    When someone takes an action that not only hurts their career but also hurts the cause they claim to support I don't consider that courageous. I consider it stupid. As a political activist Kaepernick is pretty much a brain dead moron.


    I consider it stupid. As a political activist Kaepernick is pretty much a brain dead moron.



    You should be required to spend all your free time serving and assisting Special Education "morons..."


    You live in a bubble.

    As noted above:

    Ali ......hero

    Tommie Smith and John Carlos ...... heroes

    Curt Flood ..... hero

    Southern Christian Leadership Conference was despised. The Black Lives Matter story is still being written.


    In two recent polls that were both conducted within the past week, a majority of respondents said that they disagree with Kaepernick's decision to protest racial inequality and police brutality by not standing for the national anthem.

    In one poll, which was conducted by Reuters, 72 percent of Americans said that they thought Kaepernick's behavior was unpatriotic. Another 61 percent said that they do not "support the stance Colin Kaepernick is taking and his decision not to stand during the national anthem."

    And you claim I'm in a bubble.

    If you are agreeing with the racists, you are in a bubble

    A different survey actually places little blame on the decline in NFL ratings on Kaepernick  but the early negative reaction to protest was not my point.


    ​My point was that the initial reaction to Ali, Smith, Carlos, and Flood was replaced by admiration. The initial reaction to black protest is negative. They became heroes later. The racists were proved wrong.


    Once again you're not reading or understanding my comment. I very specifically said I don't care about symbols. I couldn't care less if some football player dropped his pants, mooned the flag, and farted along to the rhythm of the Star Spangled Banner. I'm just aware enough of the world and of people who have different views than mine to know that most people are offended when someone disrespects their symbols. I've been paying attention to what people think long enough to know that usually most people have a different view than I.

    You seem to be operating under the delusion that most people have the same opinions you have. I doubt that. While Ali was famous enough to be remembered and to get forgiveness and even admiration from most people I don't think the majority see Smith, Carlos, or Flood as heroes. I think most people have no idea who these people are and what they did. They are not admired by the majority, they are forgotten. I think if you explained who Smith and Carlos are and what they did most people would not think their actions heroic.


    I'm trying to see how your scale works. Martin Luther King Jr. was not popular in the Sixties.Was he not a hero at the time?



    It doesn't matter what I think or you think. What I'm discussing is what the majority likely thinks and how they will react. You never address my comments because you have no convincing arguments to dispute them. You claim Kaepernick will be seen as a hero because Smith and Carlos were eventually seen as heroes. Once again I doubt that. Of course I remember Smith and Carlos, I was alive and saw it when it happened. I doubt that most people even remember them. We may remember and we may think their actions heroic but if you explained to those who don't remember who they are and what they did most people would not see their actions as heroic. Even during the 2016 Olympic games, "a majority of Americans, whether they identify as white or as belonging to a racial minority, felt that it was best to keep politics out of the Olympics." Overall, 65 percent wanted politics to play no part in the Games. Asked if Olympic athletes should express their political views, 52 percent of those from racial minorities answered no, So really, what makes you believe Smith and Carlos are remembered as heroes, or remembered at all by a majority of Americans?

    Kaepernick is a fool. He likely destroyed his career. He damaged the BLM movement. And he'll probably be forgotten a couple of decades from now. I just can't consider that degree of stupidity courageous.

    I labeled Flood, Smith, Carlos, and King heroes. You countered by saying a majority would not consider them heroes 

    Your comment

    I don't think the majority see Smith, Carlos, or Flood as heroes. I think most people have no idea who these people are and what they did. They are not admired by the majority, they are forgotten. I think if you explained who Smith and Carlos are and what they did most people would not think their actions heroic.

    You made the popularity contest argument. I challenged your argument by pointing out that MLK was unpopular. You then do your usual crap of pretending that you did not create the popularity contest meme to define a hero. You ask who considers Smith and Carlos heroes. President Obama, for one, praised them.


    BTW your poll does not ask blacks that given the context of the times, do you support the actions of Smith and Carlos

    The context of the times

    1. King had just recently been killed

    2. A white supremacist, George Wallace was running for President

    3. There were race riots in major cities.


    Here are Obama's comments about Smith and Carlos (from Wash Times link)

    “We’re proud of them,” Mr. Obama said. “Their powerful silent protest in the 1968 games was controversial, but it woke folks up and created greater opportunity for those that followed.”

    Here are Obama's comments about Kaepernick (Again Wash Times link)

    “I want Mr. Kaepernick and others who are on a knee to listen to the pain that that may cause somebody who, for example, had a spouse or a child who was killed in combat and why it hurts them to see somebody not standing,” Mr. Obama said. “I also want people to think about the pain he may be expressing about somebody who’s lost a loved one that they think was unfairly shot. One of thing I saw about American democracy is that it can be frustrating, but it’s the best system we’ve got.”




    I labeled Flood, Smith, Carlos, and King heroes. You countered by saying a majority would not consider them heroes 

    You lie. You constantly lie in every debate you have with everyone you debate with. That's why it's such a waste of time to talk to you. I never expressed any opinion on MLK. I never said a majority would not consider MLK a hero. Rational dialog is not possible when others have to constantly correct your lies. You left out Ali. I posted partial agreement, " While Ali was famous enough to be remembered and to get forgiveness and even admiration from most people I don't think the majority see Smith, Carlos, or Flood as heroes." That Ali and MLK eventually came to be admired is not evidence that any other or every other unpopular activist will eventually be seen as a hero.

    The rest of your post is obfuscation that doesn't address any point I made in my post and, as usual, tells more lies about my post. I'm not going to waste any more time wading through your obfuscation and lies.

    You are the one who dodges the truth. You made the popularity meme. I pointed out that using the popularity meme you posed, Martin Luther King Jr.would have failed the popularity test. Instead of trying to correct your criteria for hero, you call me a liar. You said that Flood, Smith, and Carlos would not be considered heroic. But that "not a hero" judgment would include Martin Luther King Jr. I can't help if the criteria you set up collected MLK. You set the measuring stick. MLK Jr was not popular in the 60s. He was still a hero. It is your criteria that sucks.

    Edit to add:

    King became more lovable after he died. During his life, King was despised.

    In my bubble, I know people died fighting for the right to vote. Civil Rights Martyrs.

    In my bubble, Tommie Smith and John Carlos were part of a movement, the Olympic Project for Human Rights, which had four specific goals, expulsion of racist Rhodesia from Olympics, removal of racist Avery Brundage as head of the IOC, vindication for Muhammad Ali and hiring of more black coaches.

    All four were achieved after their 1968 fist raising gestures by the 1972 Olympics.

    In my bubble, only a naive fool would say Trump or Clinton are both liars  and it makes no difference who gets elected, because "the oppressor isn't going to allow you to vote your way out of your oppression."

    In my bubble, a guy who says he will stop kneeling if given a new contract because he created "positive change" needs to be asked....what change?....do you know who is President?

    In my bubble, I encourage people of conscience to vote against Republicans, a Party which uses lies, voter suppression, big money and racism to gain power.

    In my bubble, I recall MLK becoming a martyr himself, for doing the hard and dangerous work of fighting oppression, and giving speeches on civil rights such as: Give Us the Ballot.

    I also know that naive yet principled youth may not be politically aware as they might be as to the often screwed up way this country works.

    Yeah the link you supplied really suggests Kaepernick is self-centered

    There were other steps Kaepernick took that did not receive the same amount of attention as his anthem stance.

    The Colin Kaepernick Foundation pledged to give $1 million to community organizations helping underprivileged people; the San Francisco 49ers matched with another $1 million in donations. He has followed through with monthly donations of $100,000 spread out over 10 months to organizations all over the country.

    Many of Kaepernick's teammates supported the quarterback during the national debate on the subject. At the end of the season, they recognized the quarterback by giving him the Len Eshmont Award, which, according to the team, goes to the player who "best exemplifies the inspirational and courageous play of Len Eshmont, an original member of the 1946 49ers team." It is the highest in-house honor a 49er can receive.

    Kaepernick said the discussion about social inequality should include all people, and he plans to continue raising money for the underprivileged and presenting the "Know Your Rights" camps nationwide that he started last year.

    He could give $100 million a month and it wouldnt replace the damage Trump is doing or the lost benefits of Clinton for black needs. Priorities.

    Ali is largely known for his 70's fights, not time as Cassius Clay.

    Smith and Carlos are likely tied as much to the Black Panthers and the 72 Olympics massacre as to MLK peaceful protests. 50 years on it's all a jumble. But at least Selma et al were organized - not BLM. Even OWS lost the thread.

    It's difficult to step into religion or patriotism and expect easy, noncontroversial results. It may be necessary or useful, but it's a minefield. The GOP has branded itself the official sponsor of Christianity, the military and patriotism, and every time we touch these electric 3rd rails, we're playing on their home turf. Stuff that would rouse our base will get chewed up and distorted by the away fans. I don't see much good that came out of Kap's venture because they spun it to be anti-God, anti-police, anti-military, anti-America, unpatriotic and harmful to football. I kept waiting to see some glimmer of recognition that innocent or even suspect blacks being gunned down in the streets was more important than a damn game or flag salute, but I didn't see much. I don't blame Kap, but if you're going to play in the pros, you have to know which teams play dirty as well.

    Peracles... Blowing bullshit...

    "Smith and Carlos are likely tied as much to the Black Panthers and the 72 Olympics massacre as to MLK peaceful protests. 50 years on it's all a jumble."

    "Are likely tied as much..."??? That's a total fabrication in your own jumbled mind.

    Put down the bong... That's total bullshit.

    Take it from someone who was on the ground and a witness to the history, ME at my FB page...



    Chill, pop another ritalin - I'm referring to public perception and 60's retrospectives - all these images flow together. Huey Newton, Kent State, Altamont, body bags from heloicopters, etc. They don't emphasize happy times in these shows if you haven't noticed. Clay/Ali is much different in a5 second soundbite than a documentary, and the audience isn't you or me.

    Besides, why so serious? I attacked you? Stepped on your  puppy? People be trigger happy. Step back from the keyboard, slowly, take a deep breath.

    The thing that makes this non sports fan way sad is how people take sports "heroes" and what they do so seriously. Just like you like to wonder about the whole tough wimmin thing, lots of us wimmin wonder about this sports thing. For chrissake, the passions involved, what a way to do a culture. It's like warfare sor something.

    I must say I admired Oceankat's comments to try to take it the level of challenging the whole "symbol" thing, unfortunately that didn't appear to work out very well. cheeky

    Thanks OGD.

    I think Kaepernick's comments about Hillary and Trump are clouding how people view him. Kaepernick did not elect Trump. He used his free speech right to make a comment about police abuse. That should not prevent employment in the NFL. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are free to mingle with the Trumps, something I find very offensive. Both men are still free to participate in NFL activities.

    Some try to pretend that MLK was always a beloved figure. This ignores the harassment King received from J. Edgar Hoover. King was hated.

    Rumor Kap going to Jets - will that make it all better? Worked for Broadway Joe.

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