The Charleston Massacre and the Confederate Flag

    Dylann Storm Roof is a White Supremacist who "had to kill" nine African-Americans. He was convinced that blacks were raping his women and taking over the world. He told friends of his plans to do harm. No friend voiced an alert. His father provided him the weapon as a birthday present despite Dylann's drug abuse and run-ins with the law. He could feel that his actions were sanctioned. In the background of his planning, he could see the Confederate battle flag flying over state grounds. He knew that South Carolinians celebrated the flag that was created as a symbol of a terrorist movement based on slavery and that blacks were not the equal of whites. The founders who fashioned the symbol took pride in being the first nation based on the inequality of the races. Roof was simply putting into practice the White Supremacy supported by his state.

    Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth...

    (From the link above "blacks were not.......")

    Fox News responded to the massacre by trying to prove that Roof was motivated by anti-Christian feelings rather than racism. They try to ignore the racist statements made to friends. They try to avoid the racist statements made to those he was about to slay. They  ignore  the Rhodesian and apartheid South African flag emblems on his jacket in a Facebook photo. They also ignore the Confederate flags on his license plate. Roof interpreted the true meaning of the Confederate flag correctly. The abomination that flies on state grounds in South Carolina must go. As Ta-Nehisi Coates notes in the Atlantic, it is time to move on.

    The American flag and South Carolina state flag will fly at half-mast for nine days. The Confederate battle flag remains at full staff.

    Comments

    Predictably, because they can't ever admit racism exists, Conservatives are following Fox's lead and try to make the massacre about faith and not race.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/18/why-the-gop-hates-talki...


    Jon Stewart was so moved by the massacre that he couldn't tell jokes last night. Here is a key point that he made

    "In South Carolina, the roads that black people drive on are named for Confederate generals who fought to keep black people from being able to drive freely on that road," he said. "The Confederate flag flies over South Carolina, and the roads are named for Confederate generals. And the white guy’s the one who feels like his country’s being taken away from him.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/18/jon-stewart-charleston-no-jokes...

    Juneteenth celebration in Charleston will be held at 7 P.M. at "Mother Emanuel". The victims of the massacre will be honored.


    Valid points and excellent summary.

    Dag had a huge blog by Ramona on the confederate flag.  A flag which this racist murderer loved and was photographed with, along with flags of other non-existent white supremacist regimes in southern Africa as you point out.

    Ramona concluded:

    At different times in our history, parts of our country belonged to the English, the Spanish, the French.  We fought them and won, and we still fly their flags in remembrance.  It's a part of our history.The South once fought to belong to the Confederacy.  They had their own flag.  How can we recognize that part of our history without recognizing their flag?   The answer is, we can't.  And the truth is, we shouldn't.

    Not to repeat as nauseam that blog, but Britain, France and Spain are great nations with long histories, they both abolished slavery by at least the 19th century, and they still exist.

    They have a history and heritage replete with historical accomplishments, persons and contributions in many fields. They continue to be a part of the modern world. The Confederacy - no, it ceased to exist in 1865.

    The Confederacy had slaves and fought a war to preserve white supremacy and lost.

    The Confederacy existed for less than 5 years, was not recognized internationally.

    It's legacy is battles and generals, and racism.

    We can acknowledge history without having that flag prominently displayed, today, in 2015, in front of the statehouse of Charleston, SC.  Charleston, a major slave port where over 800 shiploads of slaves were auctioned off and sold as chattel.

    From the NYT:

    The Confederate flag still flies over the state capitol building in South Carolina, a symbol of nostalgia for slavery and the degradation of black people. As Jon Stewart pointed out last night, black motorists drive down streets in Charleston named for the generals who fought to keep them in chains.

     


    If I understand correctly, the five flags are brought out for a festival. I don't see that they are permanently flown on state grounds. Dylann Storm Roof can be funeralized with the Confederate battle flag draped on his coffin. The flag can be folded and handed to his father. The Roof family can do whatever they want privately. People of good conscience should not have to pay public taxes for upkeep of a flag dedicated to slavery.

    Cowards like South Carolina politicians Nikki Haley and Mark Sanford will do nothing about the flag. South Carolina should face the same backlash that Indiana faced. Take that abomination of a flag down. South Carolina will still have John Calhoun's statue and the roadways honoring Confederate generals. The street where Emanuel AME stands is named after to-slavery, pro-state's rights John C. Calhoun. Emanuel is on Calhoun Street. How much more appeasement is required?


    The Confederate flag flies in front of the SC capitol building on state property, correct?

    And I read it takes an Act of the SC legislature to lower it?

    The funeral homes give the option of a Confederate flag burial? Could one also be clothed in the grey uniform of the Confederacy? Of course, Storm Roof isn't dead yet......

    I'm not aware of what other racist flags these idiots fly at their 'festivals'. Could care less frankly.


    For the record, NCD, I want that Confederate flag on the statehouse grounds either taken down or flown at half-mast.  The fact that it flies above the American flag right now is completely wrong and it needs to be addressed.   It's an insult.

    You can think what you want about what I wrote, but I don't intend to rehash it.  I hate what that young white man did to those black members of that church and I get it that it was because he's a racist through and through. 

    I understand why so many people hate the Confederate flag and what it stands for.  I get it.  So please don't drag me into your rage.  I'm as heartbroken and outraged as anybody.  I thought what Jon Stewart said was exactly right.  When a flag is used by racists as a racist symbol it is, in fact, a racist symbol.

     


     


    I am not in a 'rage'. I am trying to point out facts and discover facts. I appreciate your position on the SC statehouse flag.

    Do you recognize that Britain, France and Spain are not comparable, as nations, to the Confederate States of America?

    And therefore, the display of their flags is not analogous?


    Yes, NCD, I understand the difference.  I used them as examples because battles were fought on our soil for ownership of this country.  Both sides shed blood. 

    But you apparently don't understand what I was trying to say in my post.  I'm okay with that as long as you're not interpreting it to mean that I must be racist for even talking about it.


    The Confederate flag fits into a culture. When slave graves were found in lower Manhattan a the site of  a federal building under construction, the end result was the African Burial Ground Monument.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Burial_Ground_National_Monument

    When slave burial sites were found in Charleston, they were paved over. South Carolinians were dismissive.

    http://gullahtours.com/archives/305

    South Carolinians have roadways and statues praising their Confederate heroes. Blacks should not have to tolerate a Confederate battle flag on state grounds.


    I agree.


    I am not:

    1) in a rage

    2) saying you are racist

    I am saying your analogy on flags is faulty, and getting even more curious with your emphasis on 'blood being shed'.


    I posted about the Confederate flag after visiting southern cemeteries and seeing thousands of tiny Confederate flags on the graves of Confederate soldiers.  They weren't put there to celebrate racism, they were put there by ancestors commemorating the deaths of their kin.  It made me realize there was another side to this issue and I tried to present that other side. 

    It shouldn't be flying in front of government offices.  I couldn't agree more. But I'm not going to keep revisiting my piece every time the Confederate flag issue comes up.  Read it any way you like.


    I believe an analogy to the flag of the Third Reich is a better example.

    1. It was a short-lived government.
    2. It was inspired by hatred and inspires hatred.

    A German could argue that flag represents their culture or German pride, etc., but who would believe them? What makes the Battle Flag of the Confederacy different?

    Note that my analogy is flawed, because I think the swastika is actually more defensible. I saw that symbol (and its mirror image) on many Buddhist temples in Japan, and I suspect you can find them in India, because it has a history that strongly pre-dates the Third Reich. However, in the context of a German person or someone of German heritage using the symbol, especially if it's on a red background, I imagine few would even try to defend it.


    [aaargh, better post lost through unfortunate click]

    The Brits may have stopped the slave trade earlier, but they continued slavery until a Jamaican uprising of 60,000 slaves in 1831, in which the Brits killed 200 and then executed another 350, which led to emancipation in 1838 (which worked so well blacks revolted in 1865 in which the Brits killed another 800), not to mention their version of Jim Crow laws that followed.  Add on the Brits setting the groundwork for apartheid in South Africa in the late 1800's/early 1900's and passing it off to the Afrikaans post-WWII. And then the British occupation of India until 1947, not letting people even mine salt and the occasional bloody incidents like the 1600 casualties in the Amritsar massacre. And then Iraq in the 1920's....

    The French occupied Indochina for 70 years and Algeria for 150 years (only leaving after a bloody revolution in 1961 in which they killed 1 million Algerians). 

    The Spanish did better only because revolutionaries like Simon Bolivar and jerks like the French and US stole most of its American possessions, but where it could, it held on - slavery abolished in Cuba only in 1866 and in Puerto Rico in 1873, and formerly Portuguese Brazil in 1888. You can add on cruel treatment of peasants by dueños and the hacienda system (along with our Boston Fruit Company from 1870 and its Banana Song spinoffs)

    "They have a history and heritage replete with historical accomplishments, persons and contributions in many fields. They continue to be a part of the modern world." - yeah right, and the Brits & French speak with such loveable accents and drive cute cars.

    History is selective, written by the winners. That doesn't mean the others were good - it means there were a lot more assholes than we admit.


    Interesting history.

    Now to current events. South Carolina is flying a Confederate battle flag on state grounds in 2015. The state has multiple roadways and statues honoring Confederates in 2015. Emanuel sits on a street named after the person who pushed the Fugitive Slave Act  through Congress. In the aftermath of the massacre, the Confederate flag remains in the sky. The battle flag is at full mast while the American flag and the state flag are at half-mast. The Confederate rag having a place on state grounds is inexcusable in 2015.

     


    Thanks for the history lesson, but it is irrelevant to the proposition that the flag (or the political/national entity) of the Confederate States of America is analogous to that of Britain, France or Spain.

    In 1807 the British Parliament passed a bill prohibiting the slave trade. In January the following year the United States followed suit by outlawing the importation of slaves. The acts did nothing to curtail the trade of slaves within the nation's borders, but did end the overseas commerce in slaves. To enforce these laws, Britain and the United States jointly patrolled the seas off the coast of Africa, stopping suspected slave traders and confiscating the ship when slaves were found. The human cargo was then transported back to Africa.

    Here is some history of Britain, the US and the slave trade from 1829, Account from an interception of a slave ship, by the Rev. Robert Walsh, : also at PDF link

    Walsh, Robert, Notices of Brazil. On the inspection of a ship near the equator by a ship of the British Navy in 1829:

    "The first object that struck us was an enormous gun, turning on a swivel, on deck - the constant appendage of a pirate; and the next were large kettles for cooking, on the bows - the usual apparatus of a slaver. Our boat was now hoisted out, and I went on board with the officers. When we mounted her decks we found her full of slaves. She was called the Feloz, commanded by Captain Jose' Barbosa, bound to Bahia. She was a very broad-decked ship, with a mainmast, schooner rigged, and behind her foremast was that large, formidable gun, which turned on a broad circle of iron, on deck, and which enabled her to act as a pirate if her slaving speculation failed. She had taken in, on the coast of Africa, 336 males and 226 females, making in all 562, and had been out seventeen days, during which she had thrown overboard 55. The slaves were all inclosed under grated hatchways between decks. The space was so low that they sat between each other's legs and [were] stowed so close together that there was no possibility of their lying down or at all changing their position by night or day. As they belonged to and were shipped on account of different individuals, they were all branded like sheep with the owner's marks of different forms. These were impressed under their breasts or on their arms, and, as the mate informed me with perfect indifference 'burnt with the red-hot iron.' Over the hatchway stood a ferocious-looking fellow with a scourge of many twisted thongs in his hand, who was the slave driver of the ship, and whenever he heard the slightest noise below, he shook it over them and seemed eager to exercise it. I was quite pleased to take this hateful badge out of his hand, and I have kept it ever since as a horrid memorial of reality, should I ever be disposed to forget the scene I witnessed.


    As soon as the poor creatures saw us looking down at them, their dark and melancholy visages brightened up. They perceived some- thing of sympathy and kindness in our looks which they had not been accustomed to, and, feeling instinctively that we were friends, they immediately began to shout and clap their hands. One or two had picked up a few Portuguese words, and cried out, "Viva! Viva!" The women were particularly excited. They all held up their arms, and when we bent down and shook hands with them, they could not contain their delight; they endeavored to scramble up on their knees, stretching up to kiss our hands, and we understood that they knew we were come to liberate them. Some, however, hung down their heads in apparently hopeless dejection; some were greatly emaciated, and some, particularly children, seemed dying.

    But the circumstance which struck us most forcibly was how it was possible for such a number of human beings to exist, packed up and wedged together as tight as they could cram, in low cells three feet high, the greater part of which, except that immediately under the grated hatchways, was shut out from light or air, and this when the thermometer, exposed to the open sky, was standing in the shade, on our deck, at 89'. The space between decks was divided into two compartments 3 feet 3 inches high; the size of one was 16 feet by 18 and of the other 40 by 21; into the first were crammed the women and girls, into the second the men and boys: 226 fellow creatures were thus thrust into one space 288 feet square and 336 into another space 800 feet square, giving to the whole an average Of 23 inches and to each of the women not more than 13 inches. We also found manacles and fetters of different kinds, but it appears that they had all been taken off before we boarded.

    Cross section of the stowage of a slave ship, 1790
     
    The heat of these horrid places was so great and the odor so offensive that it was quite impossible to enter them, even had there been room. They were measured as above when the slaves had left them. The officers insisted that the poor suffering creatures should be admitted on deck to get air and water. This was opposed by the mate of the slaver, who, from a feeling that they deserved it, declared they would murder them all. The officers, however, persisted, and the poor beings were all turned up together. It is impossible to conceive the effect of this eruption - 517 fellow creatures of all ages and sexes, some children, some adults, some old men and women, all in a state of total nudity, scrambling out together to taste the luxury of a little fresh air and water. They came swarming up like bees from the aperture of a hive till the whole deck was crowded to suffocation front stem to stern, so that it was impossible to imagine where they could all have come from or how they could have been stowed away. On looking into the places where they had been crammed, there were found some children next the sides of the ship, in the places most remote from light and air; they were lying nearly in a torpid state after the rest had turned out. The little creatures seemed indifferent as to life or death, and when they were carried on deck, many of them could not stand.

    After enjoying for a short time the unusual luxury of air, some water was brought; it was then that the extent of their sufferings was exposed in a fearful manner. They all rushed like maniacs towards it. No entreaties or threats or blows could restrain them; they shrieked and struggled and fought with one another for a drop of this precious liquid, as if they grew rabid at the sight of it.

    It was not surprising that they should have endured much sickness and loss of life in their short passage. They had sailed from the coast of Africa on the 7th of May and had been out but seventeen days, and they had thrown overboard no less than fifty-five, who had died of dysentery and other complaints in that space of time, though they had left the coast in good health. Indeed, many of the survivors were seen lying about the decks in the last stage of emaciation and in a state of filth and misery not to be looked at. Even-handed justice had visited the effects of this unholy traffic on the crew who were engaged in it. Eight or nine had died, and at that moment six were in hammocks on board, in different stages of fever. This mortality did not arise from want of medicine. There was a large stock ostentatiously displayed in the cabin, with a manuscript book containing directions as to the quantities; but the only medical man on board to prescribe it was a black, who was as ignorant as his patients.

    Image from an abolitionist
    pamphlet, 1837
     
    While expressing my horror at what I saw and exclaiming against the state of this vessel for conveying human beings, I was informed by my friends, who had passed so long a time on the coast of Africa and visited so many ships, that this was one of the best they had seen. The height sometimes between decks was only eighteen inches, so that the unfortunate beings could not turn round or even on their sides, the elevation being less than the breadth of their shoulders; and here they are usually chained to the decks by the neck and legs. In such a place the sense of misery and suffocation is so great that the Negroes, like the English in the Black Hole at Calcutta, are driven to a frenzy. They had on one occasion taken a slave vessel in the river Bonny; the slaves were stowed in the narrow space between decks and chained together. They heard a horrible din and tumult among them and could not imagine from what cause it proceeded. They opened the hatches and turned them up on deck. They were manacled together in twos and threes. Their horror may be well conceived when they found a number of them in different stages of suffocation; many of them were foaming at the mouth and in the last agonies-many were dead. A living man was sometimes dragged up, and his companion was a dead body; sometimes of the three attached to the same chain, one was dying and another dead. The tumult they had heard was the frenzy of those suffocating wretches in the last stage of fury and desperation, struggling to extricate themselves. When they were all dragged up, nineteen were irrecoverably dead. Many destroyed one another in the hopes of procuring room to breathe; men strangled those next them, and women drove nails into each other's brains. Many unfortunate creatures on other occasions took the first opportunity of leaping overboard and getting rid, in this way, of an intolerable life."

    References:
       Walsh, Robert, Notices of Brazil in 1828 and 1829 (1831).


    Thanks for pasting in large passages of text, but 1) how does banning the slave trade obviate its slave *use* for another 30 years, and 2) how does banning "slavery" cause us to ignore the effective servitude of India and apartheid/servitude to the throne for 80 years after the Civil War?

    And 3) just because it was short-lived, what specifically makes the Civil War flag(s) less acceptable than our several Revolutionary War flags or the British, French and Spanish flags? Moldova is a runt spinoff of Romania that could be re-gobbled up at any time; East Timor is a revolutionary state that exists mainly because the UN got involved (double-ditto for Israel); we ripped Panama away from Colombia so we could build a canal; Kuwait was an arbitrary invention by the British; Gibraltar has a flag even though just a piece of rock hanging off Spain; North Korea still has its flag despite 63 years split from South Korea with no actual treaty; US settlers stole Texas & the Alamo flag from the Mexicans but those aren't going back soon; Tibet has a flag that's only use outside the country/territory; Macedonia has a flag that's not recognized by much of the world; Bolivia is half its original size; Czechs and Slovaks joined flags only to split in two 70 years later, while Yugoslavia split into 6 (Slovenia didn't ask Serbia's permission to leave); Kurds have a flag with no unified territory & have proposed splitting from Iraq; Azerbaijan is a new country that only existed for 2 years previously; South Sudan was created by referendum and recognized by Sudan, while Eritrea seceded from Ethiopia. Lots of countries and territories, lots of flags, lots of circumstances.


    Is there anything that specifically makes the Civil War flag(s) more acceptable than the flag of the Third Reich? Don't many Germans have ancestors who died for the Third Reich?


    Yes, they do, but I'm not sure they're buried in their own section at their national cemetery with hundreds of Nazi flags adorning their tombstones.  We do that here for Confederate soldiers.  There is a Confederate section at Arlington National Cemetery and on Memorial Day hundreds of tiny Confederate flags fly at every gravesite.  Every president since Wilson has sent a wreath to the Confederate Soldiers monument.

    If you're going to compare Confederate soldiers fighting in a civil war with the butchers in Nazi Germany, the discussion is probably over.


    If you're going to compare Confederate soldiers fighting in a civil war with the butchers in Nazi Germany, the discussion is probably over.

    Why? Do you not see the similarities?

    How many Germans fighting for the Third Reich were doing so solely out of hatred of Jews (or homosexuals or "Gypsies" or …)? Many Germans went along with the Third Reich for the same reasons that Confederate soldiers went along with what they were asked to do. They felt it was "their duty as citizens". (Related concepts were later explored in the famous Milgram experiments.)

    I'll agree that the Third Reich's extermination of the Jews is worse than "simply" the enslavement of African Americans, but it's not a huge leap, is it? The primary differences as I see it are:

    1. Germans have the good sense to be embarrassed by the Third Reich (note that there's a difference between Southern pride and Confederate pride).
    2. Germans were treated better after the war than the South.

    While the second point helps to explain some of the Southern attitudes, it doesn't exonerate them. It's like saying that the fact that someone was abused as a child is a factor in that person's later child abuse. Yes, but that doesn't make that later child abuse OK.

    Note that I have often defended the South against the knee-jerk anti-Southern attitudes sometimes expressed here at Dagblog, but there's a difference between appreciating Southern culture and appreciating Confederate heritage. Southern states had a history before the Confederacy, and they've had history since then. Why must Southern pride be conflated with Confederate pride. These are as separate as German pride and Nazi pride.


    I believe the Nazi flag is well illegal in Germany and most of Europe.

    Yes, indeed that is the case in Germany. Not surprisingly, the law is more nuanced in other places. Yes, these are Wikipedia links, but I find Wikipedia reasonably reliable. But, if anyone has any counter - or additional - evidence, I'm interested in that.


    As to your first point, which is an interesting question, I found this article which suggests at least some Nazis have their own cemetery (and that it has not surprisingly lead to controversy).


      We do that here for Confederate soldiers.  There is a Confederate section at Arlington National Cemetery and on Memorial Day hundreds of tiny Confederate flags fly at every gravesite.   

    The United States should stop doing this. Instead, on a day that isn't Memorial Day, white flags could be used to mark only the graves of Confederate soldiers who died on the battlefield. Maybe April 9.

    Of course, if great, great, great uncle Ezekiel fought against the United States in the Civil War and you feel the need to recognize his treasonous act on occasion by planting a Confederate flag near his headstone, be my guest. So long as he is buried on private land, that is.


    I say, fuck the confederate flag. And while I'm at it, fuck the flags of the united states, france, england and spain, in no particular order. Oh, and fuck the nazi flag, too.


    Oh my goodness.

    Hell you get as mad as I do sometimes.

    hahahahahahah

    IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER.

    Well, I cannot praise all your thoughts, but I hereby render unto Kyle Flynn (a good Irish name after all) the Dayly Line of the Day for this here Dagblog Site, given to all of Kyle from all of me.

    hahahah

    I love our flag. It is the only flag we got! All these countries are guilty of a multitude of sins!

    I still love my country.

    But in no particular order....I am fine with that!

    the end


    Stars and bars = Haters and traitors


    Yeah I agree.

    I do not have much to add either, thanks to NCD and others.

    MSNBC just announced that my President has had to make the same speech 14 times during his Administration.

    There have been White kids shot down, Mall visitors, Marathon runners....

    But in the current context involving Blacks slain by police, and with the Confederate Flag flying full mast...

    I got one song. I do not mean to seem trite, but

     


    Right singer, wrong album... it's those Canucks' fault. Long may you run...

     


    And a version of Words with a bit of Alabama you've probably never heard...

     


    I will call and raise a hundred:

    After all, this is how I feel right now.

     


    Maybe you just need to walk on...


    You know, you never give up!

    Delightful!


    The Confederate flag we see today is not the Stars and Bars, it's the Battle flag. So since we are technically (arguably) no longer "engaged in a great civil war", a flag symbolizing battle has no need to be flown. It is a reference to the history of our scarred country; what it represents must be remembered - that's why we have museums.


    President Obama apparently believes it belongs in a museum ... though as is often the case, his opinion matters no more than ours.


    The head of the NAACP also calls for removing the Confederate battle flag.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/19/us-usa-shooting-south-carolina...


    The Confederate flag was created by a group of people supporting the idea that the negro was inferior and therefore could be enslaved. The founders of this movement were proud to be the First Nation conceived  specifically on that concept. The flag does not deserve a place on state property. It is 2015, the flag needs to be taken down.the flag is based upon a racist ideology and only serves to give aid and comfort to racists.

    If you want to celebrate your Confederate heritage in Charleston, take a look at the multitude of streets and statues honoring dead Confederates. Travel down Calhoun street as you pass the place where the Charleston massacre occurred. Your Confederate heritage remains intact. 


    UNC Chapel Hill , Duke, and other Southern universities are grappling with their racist pasts. Duke and UNC-Chapel Hill changed the names on buildings honoring racists. Clemson decided to keep the building named for the assassin of a post Civil War era black State Senator. The challenges over names are not about erasing the past, they are about not forcing people to embrace one groups nostalgia for the past.


    Just wanted to let you know that your Clemson link leads to the story about Duke.


    Thx

     


    Clemson link is incorrect

    Corrected link

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/02/13/clemson-debates-whether-r...

    ​Edit to add:

    The University of Virginia is opening a new dormitory named after a slave couple in the fall. The honor goes to William and Isabella Gordon, a slave couple owned by two professors at the University of Virginia. The university wants students to be aware of its role in slavery. Post emancipation, William became a pastor while Isabella became a teacher.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/19/uva-gibbons-house_n_7615314.html


    Interesting story. I have no idea why some administrators are conflating a decision not to honor the dishonorable with ignoring history, when it is in fact quite the opposite. I think Duke's approach is excellent:

    To ensure that the change is an educational one, a plaque detailing the history of the name will be placed in the entryway of the dormitory, Brodhead noted.


    South Carolina Republican State Senator Doug Brannon vows to enter a bill calling for removal of the Confederate battle flag from state grounds. 

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/20/south-carolina-remove-confedera...


    Early reports suggest that Storm Roof left a racist manifesto online.


    Too bad there wasn't a white ISIS somewhere this guy could have gone to and blown himself up for (and nobody else), in his pursuit of whiteness.

    His example may make people suspicious at every bowl cut blond male they come across......wondering how nuts they might be underneath the surface....the Carolina/Kentucky region abounds with the type.


    The thing he has done is make the Confederate flag more of a pariah. Confederate flag supporters have used multiple lies to support the emblem. They put out the lie that the flag was supporting state's rights. The truth is that the flag was the symbol of a group of men who believed that the natural state of the Negro was to be a slave. The words of the secessionists emphasized slavery.

    Next they argue that since the American flag supported slavery from the beginning of the country, we cannot complain about the slave-supporting Confederate flag. If one looks at the ideals of the United States, it was that all men were created equal. The ideal of the Confederacy was that white men had a God given right to enslave black men. Pushing the United States to it's ideal means that black men should be free. Pushing the Confederacy to its ideal means that black men should be slaves.

    The next thing that Confederate flag supporters try to do is a farcical argument that the flag flying on state grounds is not the "real" Confederate flag. This only makes sense to Confederates. No Confederate flag of any flavor should be flying on state grounds.

    It is 2015. It is time for that divisive flag to find a resting place in museums or private homes.at this point anyone supporting keeping the Confederate battle flag on state grounds is supporting the ideal of slavery. Confederates are free to keep their relics at home or visit them in museums. They still have their statue of John C.Calhoun.


    Good points. Slavery and indentured servitude were virtually universally practiced world wide for thousands of years.

    Perhaps only the Japanese or Eskimoes didn't have a history of it.

    I keep harping on those who see 'another side to the issue' of Confederate flags, comparing the Confederacy to Britain or France, and saying 'it's Ok' means nothing but honoring heritage.

    The Confederacy heritage is, it was never a nation. It was a figment of some cabal of traitors imagination.

    There were many southerners who fought for the Union:  Alabama, list of Union Regiments.

    The Confederacy was never recognized as a nation.

    It had no more national legitimacy then Cliven Bundy has to his cattle range on BLM land in Nevada.

     


    The White Citizens Council did not speak for all Southern whites, just as the race-baiting GOP does not represent all Southern whites.

    The other lie Conservative flag supporters tell is that the NAACP agreed to the compromise of having the Confederate battle flag on state grounds. If one notes that the current NAACP President calls for the flag to come down and that the NAACP works to block events like NCAA tournaments because of the flag, you realize that the Confederate flag supporters lied again. The NAACP has called for boycotts because of the Confederate flag.


    If the Confederacy had won, like the US, it would have been recognized as a nation. No use pissing off the US if they were going to lose. Still, the UK & France recognized the south as a belligerent - e.g. an actual entity - with consular offices, and UK, France, Spain, Russia and Prussia all provided military aid.

    All this discussion is pretty stupid - if you want to ban the flag as representing an evil, oppressive, racist state, fine. But this stupid shit as if the confederacy didn't exist or have as much identity and firepower as South Sudan, Moldova, Kosovo, East Timor, Panama, etc. is just looking for some bizarre affirmations on a 150 year old grudge match. That non-existent country kicked the north's ass in the early days of the war - one of the 2-3 best equipped countries in the world. That didn't last long, seeing as the south was a rural agriculture economy like most of the world at that time, and obviously cotton don't shoot well.

    And I think people are overestimating the confederate flag as any serious instigator of violence towards blacks as if it were a Mullah's call to jihad. Rednecks have been wielding stickers on their pickups for years. Growing up, there wasn't a lot of shooting people in churches and theaters like these days - incluing non-southern states, and I recall the Klan as a pretty bass-ackwards disrespected sign of backwardsness. Ban the flag, but look for the causes of all the violence on Rush Limbaugh or other hate-raking sites - this stuff has picked up since the Reagan & Gingrich years.

    As for flags, as Kyle above seemed to intimate, the US flag is our war emblem, not a banner of peace, and wasn't exactly welcome by Mexicans, Indians/natives out west, Vietnamese and Cambodians hiding from napalm, and Yemenis & Pakistani civilians running from drones. It don't get much better than this, sadly.


    That non-existent country kicked the north's ass in the early days of the war - one of the 2-3 best equipped countries in the world. That didn't last long, seeing as the south was a rural agriculture economy like most of the world at that time, and obviously cotton don't shoot well.

    Wow. And...

    And I think people are overestimating the confederate flag as any serious instigator of violence towards blacks as if it were a Mullah's call to jihad. Rednecks have been wielding stickers on their pickups for years. Growing up, there wasn't a lot of shooting people in churches and theaters like these days, and I recall the Klan as a pretty bass-ackwards disrespected sign of backwardsness. Ban the flag, but look for the causes of all the violence on Rush Limbaugh or other hate-raking sites - this stuff has picked up since the Reagan years.

     

    wow. You're a smart dude, PP. But this is some crazy shit. 


    Take note of the time signatures on our comments. That's weird shit PP.


    [re: timestamp, comment was edited to note how controversial the US flag is]

    Instead of saying "wow" or "crazy", how about identify what is even debatable?

    Okay, I'll start - Bull Run of course was an embarrassment to the north, and you can look at the early battles through year 1 & 2 to see the margins - whatever the state of the flag, the north was pretty sure the Confederacy existed by then.

    There's a whiskey called "Rebel Yell" - do you think people drinking it suddenly espouse racism? By the time the 70's started, schools were all integrated, the ugliness of the 60's resistance to Civil Rights had largely subsided, the KKK was only present as some kind of oddball Shriner's Club out in the country handing out feeble pamphlets, the staunchly racist George Wallace faded to be replaced by the much more racially liberal and tolerant Jimmy Carter whose campaign and administration had Andrew Young and other prominent black figures plus were heavy on the Southern Rock and the Rebel/Dixie symbolism that we're discussing here  - how to explain, except to think that the symbolism of the flag can be for a regional affinity and not just as a symbol of racial hatred?

    In 1984, Jesse Jackson won Louisiana, the District of Columbia, South Carolina, Virginia, and one of two separate contests in Mississippi - in 1988 he did better. That doesn't mean the Civil War or Civil Rights eras were forgotten, but in some ways, the south was much more progressive then than it is today in 2015 - including a quarter century of racial muckraking by GOP operatives.

    Of course symbols can be co-opted or serve multiple purposes, just as Sarah Palin tries to co-opt the flag and "our troops" for her own twisted politics. If we ban the rebel flag as a symbol of the racist Confederacy, and insert something somehow southern but not related to the Civil War, I'm pretty sure soon 1) some group of assholes will find a way of making the new one stand for various conservative intolerant policies, and 2) another group of assholes will condemn any sentiment of southerners being southerners. That's the way the world bounces. And even without the formal groups egging people on, there will be the nuts like Brevik in Norway, the Charlie Hebro murderers in France, Timothy McVee in Oklahoma, and the Columbine shooters in Colorado. Part of that may be the internet, alienation, the odds of nuts making it all the way through planning to actual action, and a number of other factors. Something like the police violence we're witnessing is much more methodical and preventable - these other atrocities are more random and difficult to root out of a country of 320 million and planet of 7 billion (though it's much more likely in a country that encourages gun ownership with no responsibility - the US - along with out-of-control places like Libya and Syria and Iraq where we managed to support civil unrest and supply weapons with no liberal democracy end game in sight)


    Nope. I'm sticking with "Wow" and "crazy" on this one. Those two comments I highlighted above express outrageous sentiments. You're not getting it. It isn't a question of whether anyone is overestimating the confederate flag as some sort of serious instigator of violence towards blacks. That fucking flag is violence towards "blacks." And anybody else interested in being a part of a community of decency, for that matter.


    The flag is a bit of a Rorschach test and political football, an affront to some, a source of pride or neutral to some - even blacks. Try this from South Carolina last November:

    Overall, 61 percent of South Carolinians said the flag should continue to fly where it is, while 33 percent say it should not.

    When broken down by race, three out of four whites – 73 percent – said the flag should continue flying, while 61 percent of blacks said it should come down.

    Fifty-three percent of whites thought strongly it should stay up, while 51 percent of blacks said it should come down.

    “That’s a divide that most people expected,” said Scott Huffmon, director of the Winthrop poll, which surveyed 852 S.C. adults from Nov. 9-16.

    “The debate over the flag is carried on by people at the extremes,” Huffmon said. “Some see it as a living testament, paying respect to slavery. Other see it as a point of honor, honoring the (Confederate) dead.”

    The poll also asked respondents to rate their feelings on the flag. The results showed that nearly a third of South Carolinians have neutral feelings about the flag.

    “Most people in the middle see it as a historical marker,” said Winthrop’s Huffmon.

    But nearly 60 percent of blacks felt negatively about the flag, most of them very negatively. Thirty-seven percent of whites felt positively about the flag compared with 26 percent who felt negatively.

    So 2/5 of blacks don't think the flag should come down - in my eyes making your statement 'fucking flag is violence towards "blacks" ' an opinion, not a fact, if 40% of victims of that violence don't see the flag that way. Nevertheless, maybe it's still time for the flag to go due to the strong feelings of 60% of the victims.

    Fine - society often moves to better, more enlightened attitudes through less than huge majorities. But then don't mix the argument with stupid shit like NCD's "The Confederacy heritage is, it was never a nation. It was a figment of some cabal of traitors imagination... The Confederacy was never recognized as a nation." As someone noted, the confederate flag never flew over a slave ship either - that was left to British, French, Spanish and Portuguese ships with their own flags over the 17th-19th centuries. Nor did it fly regularly over plantations as a symbol of slavery (unlike the Nazi flag at concentration camps) except possibly some short-term appearance during the war years, as a tiny period from 200+ years of colonial/US slavery. Reconstruction use n the post-slavery period is a different matter that can certainly be debated.

    And as I pointed out, for a "figment of ....traitors' imagination", they spilled a lot of non-imaginary northern blood rather effectively - many a delusional person has fought worse.

    So maybe the Union Jack stands for eventual women's suffrage along with slavery out of Bristol along with occupation of India and freeing Europe from Nazis and the Magna Carta and Oliver Cromwell's butchery in Scotland and Ireland - since women don't seem to acknowledge it either way, and blacks in Jamaica don't seem to complain or are no longer part of the Empire to matter, and most of the Scotch-Irish emigrated to the US, and Indians I guess are largely still benign or accepting about their historical time under the thumb of the British Empire, and mostly since it's still used by a country that hasn't been conquered, well, the Union Jack will continue, whether there's a UN resolution or not. I don't particularly see that as a higher moral ground. Maybe the Union Jack has stood for a lot of things, but if you were a black under Cecil Rhodes' administration in Africa, I'm pretty sure you saw it only 1 way.

    But if you want to selectively parse history, have fun - I noted other issues that have some relevance but are not necessarily overriding, and mostly I'm of the mind that the flag is mostly irrelevant to the real issues of racism that persist and IMHO in the last 15 years seem to be getting worse again. Get rid of the symbol, fine, but do something about real anti-black actions too like stop-and-frisk, war on drugs' incarceration, police violence, voting discrimination, black poverty, lack of access to education, strategies to improve black access to better jobs, etc.


    Good points, PP.  Especially that last one.  Rage over that flag shouldn't trump the real issues, especially now, this week.  This is our chance to talk about what racism does to real lives, how shameful it is that it still manifests itself in so many ways in this country.  If it were just the elimination of a hated flag, we might have had an easier time of it.  It's far, far more than that.

    Once that flag is taken down from the statehouse grounds, racism won't magically disappear, but  I think it should be removed.  We have a tradition that no flag should ever be flying higher than the American flag.  They're flouting that, too.  It needs to go.

    But as easy as it is to use something as tangible and symbolic as a flag as a target for dissension, it's missing the big picture, and right now we need to concentrate on every aspect of racism.  It would be a shame to waste this moment by narrowing down the discussion to the sight of a waving flag instead of working toward fixing the issues that are so much more meaningful to American blacks.
     


    Give me a break. People can fight racism and demand the Confederate flag stop being used in any official way (which is also fighting racism). And don't worry about "wasting the moment." Another moment is on it's way and will be here soon. Your country is reliable like that. 


    Fine, she wasn't complaining about stopping the official use of the flag. Kill the flag, who really cares?

    But Ferguson, Missouri wasn't about the flag; the black guy killed by chokehold in NY wasn't about the flag; Freddie Gray in Balimore wasn't about the flag; the lack of opportunity and unemployment and foreclosure on black homes isn't about the flag. Tasering unconscious or epileptic black men in the Bay Area metro isn't about the flag. Incarceration of 1 million+ blacks isn't about the flag. So don't waste the moment, and deal with "we're shitty as a nation towards black people" as more important than whether a rebel flag waves in South Carolina. Removing the flag won't do fuck all to the basic racism that plagues the country. Yes, Manson heard crazy shit from Beatles records and Dylan Roof had inspiration from the Confederate flag and white supremacists, and shared some weird apocryphal race war wish, but mostly were just afflicted the visceral racism that's just a continued backdrop of our unsettled racial business over the last 50 years and last 300.


    The fuck those events weren't about the same white supremacy promoted by the Confederate flag. Dealing with the lies about what remains after the Civil War is part and parcel of dealing with racism. Republican candidates can't address racism in the Charleston massacre because they fear backlash from the racists they are courting. White prosecutors and jurors can't deal with the racism of police abuse because they are pretending racism doesn't exist. Lying about the Civil War is the initial place that gives cover for racist acts. Clementa Pinckney fought against police abuse. The white supremacists in the SC Senate took no action until there was video of a black man gunned down in the back in North Charleston. Now body cameras will be more common. Pinckney saw that video as a gift from God. The white supremacists in the SC Senate were willing to ignore police abuse until forced to view it. They could dismiss black concerns because their "heritage" trumps the dehumanization under slavery. Their white privilege and heritage told them black lives don't matter.

    Getting rid of the Confederate rag won't end racism. But when a state moves towards voter suppression or shuttering an, HBCU, they will be viewed by a country a little more sensitive about racism and the abomination of the Confederate flags.  Appeasement about the Civil War has made it easy for racists to influence the political atmosphere. Time for this shit to stop.

     


    White Southerners have a multitude of statues and streets to celebrate their Confederate heroes. They want the flag because they want to cling to their white supremacy. They still can celebrate their white supremacy with statues, roads, and museums. White a Southerners want no compromises at all. They want the whole enchilada. They want to rub white supremacy in the face of black citizens. There is no chance that the South Carolina citizenry or legislature will take any serious action to benefit black citizens if they can't budge on this silly flag. The flag supports white supremacy.

    Flag supporters have lied that the Ci il War was not about blacks being inferior to whites. Supporters have lied that the NAACP agreed with the flag compromise, despite ongoing calls for a boycott. Nikki Haley may cry abut the victims of the massacre, but she still supports the flag. She will still allow South Carolina State University, an HBCU, to close despite the Oraneburg massacre.

    We all know that as Jon Stewart noted, "Jackshit" will happen in response to the massacre. The wing nuts will still control the Governor's mansion, the legislature, and the citizenry. The flag should come down in honor of those massacred. The white supremacists are not going to do anything else of value.


    At this point, the only Republican candidate directly addressing the overall race issue is Ben Carson. A writer for Conservative Hot Air blog suggests that South Carolina lose its place as an early primary state, if the flag keeps flying.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/gop-candidates-2016-charleston-dyl...


    The Rebel flag looks cool, certainly nicer design than the US flag. Why do people like flags? Dunno, never had one myself. But they're popular on earth.

    The flag is a bit of a Rorschach test and political football, an affront to some, a source of pride or neutral to some - even blacks.

    Yes, it is. And, I believe you and Ramona (and others who have suggested it's not a completely bad thing) would never use it in any bad way. Well, I doubt y'all would use it, period.

    The thing is, no one has yet explained how the Confederate flag is significantly different from the Nazi flag, other than the Nazi flag is outlawed in Germany and has constraints in other places. The Confederacy was a short-lived government, whose primary purpose was to defend their states' rights to allow citizens to own slaves. The Nazi government was a short-lived government, whose primary purpose was the self-aggrandizement of its leader, who had no qualms about killing those he considered to be inferior. The states that belonged to the Confederacy had a long history (including slavery) prior to joining. Germany (et al.) had a long history (including anti-Semitism) prior to becoming Nazi Germany. And so on and so on.

    The South (blacks, whites, et al.) should be as embarrassed of the Confederate flag as Germany is of the Nazi flag. To equate the Confederate flag with Southern heritage is an insult to the South.


    I explained how it was different, including not used for concentration camps or death trains/slave ships, used for recreation and clothing to denote a geographical region, along with use in Reconstruction/kkk rallies. Fill in more.

    Do you think that a Confederate flag did not fly over concentration camps during the Civil War? Have you seen pictures of those camps? (I'll note that conditions were not necessarily any better in the North.)

    I already acknowledged that many in the South surprisingly identify themselves with this emblem.

    As for the use of the Confederate flag in racist rallies, that's a similarity, not a difference.


    What concentration camps? I think you're confusing terms. Those were prisoner of war camps. Concentration camps were invented by our effete erudite Brit friends as a way of locking up civilian populations en masse around 1900, and copied by the Germans in dealing with Jews, gypsies (Roma), homosexuals and the disabled.


    This historian calls the Civil War camps concentration camps. He also notes that, as per the ideology of the Confedracy, black troops would not be part of any prisoner exchange.

    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v02/v02p137_Weber.html


    That historian is wrong. POW camps are not thought of as concentration camps. They are POW camps - there is a distinction.


    Given the outcomes, what is the difference other than semantics?


    Please, if we're discussing apples and you pull out a peach and say "see, not all apples are hard", well, it's hard to have a discussion.


    But your apples had nothing to do with the oranges we were discussing, and peaches are more like oranges than apples are.


    I think my two pear beats your apples, oranges, and peaches. Sorry guys. (rakes in the pot)


    300 African American troops were slaughtered under the Confederate flag despite surrendering. The Confederates did not view blacks as human. 

    http://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/fort-pillow-massacre

    The troops under the U.S. flag protected black students trying to get an education in Southern schools. There are good things that can be associated with the flag of the United States. The only thing the Confederate flag supported was the subjugation of blacks. 

    The families of the victims of the Charleston massacre forgave the murderer and are willing to move on. It is sad that the hearts of many white Southerners are so hardened that they still cling to a racist rag from the past.


    In Malta the Knights Templar still use the flag they flew for the racist crusade against Jerusalem 1000 years ago. This is basically "dog bites man" stuff - how people pretty much always act. The Japanese flag is fairly similar (and criticized) to the flag they used in invading and abusing the Pacific Rim - including barbarous prisoner of war camps and death marches, horrific medical experimentation on humans, and mass atrocities against millions in Manchuria, China and elsewhere. 


    I don't give a fuck about Malta. I'm talking about a symbol of racism that proudly flies on state grounds in South Carolina. Stay on point. Take that cracker rag down.


    I don't give a fuck about Malta - I give a fuck about principles, and people of course.


    You're right it's the principle of the thing. If the racists in Malta got to keep their racist flag for a thousand years it's only fair that the racists in America get to keep their racist flag for at least a couple of hundred years more. Gotta admire you for taking a stand on principle.


    Nice snark - no, I'm just pointing out

    a) "hey, these other guys like UK are real countries, while the Confederacy was never recognized" gives all these other countries a pass for some reason over their slave-trading/slave-using path and racist, murderous, exploitive behavior

    b) the norm is still for people to exploit their neighbors, waving their flags as they encourage new bloodshed and atrocities. For all the flags with blood all over them, I don't see the Confederate flag as that exceptional. Get rid of the Confederate flag, get rid of all of them - usually we're just using them to encourage another war imposing some major power's new order on someone else. Maybe you don't think your flag is racist - I can pretty well catalog most of them.


    See below


    This is too simplistic a parallel, I think. The differences go beyond flags. After the Civil War, the South lionized the Confederacy, naming streets and schools for its war heroes, writing books about its brilliant generals, and celebrating the "rebel yell." But you won't find a Heydrich Straße or a Goering Gymnasium in Germany. Only extremists celebrate the Nazi salute. What the Nazis did was shocking and shameful even by the standards of the time, and their crimes far exceeded even the anti-semitic norms of the early 1900s. So after WWII, the Germans collectively and immediately repudiated the Nazi regime. The Nazi flag has, therefore, never been anything but the symbol of that regime.

    By contrast, Southerners were not shocked or ashamed by slavery in the late 1860s. Coming to terms with the evil of slavery would take decades, and coming to terms with the evil of racism and segregation more than a century. All that time, Southern states kept those streets and schools and flags a-waving. The rebellion against the North became part of white Southerner's sense of identity and pride--and has remained so even after Southerners repudiated slavery and segregation. For the most part, the rest of the country has tolerated and even celebrated this identity (e.g. Gone with the Wind, Dukes of Hazzard, etc.).

    So while the Nazi flag is only the Nazi flag, the Confederate flag is more complex. It's a symbol of slavery AND a symbol of cultural pride. IMO, the stain of slavery trumps cultural pride, and I believe that the government of South Carolina should dissociate itself from the flag. But I can at least understand why many white Southerners wish to downplay its negative associations and emphasize the cultural element.


    Yes.
     


    The use of Confederate flags on state grounds coincided with the rise of the Civil Rights movement. South Carolinas Confederate  flag went up around 1962. The flag is only nostalgic for whites. Blacks have been forced to tolerate the racist symbol. Only recently has there been enough political and economic clout to challenge the Confederate flag.

    Ta-Nehisi Coates does an excellent job detailing how Confederate supporters feign shock when someone who follows the ideals of the Confederacy, from John Wilkes Booth to Dylann Storm Roof, when violence occurs in the name of the Confederacy. The violence is not a bug, it is a feature.

    Point to something of value in the Confederacy that did not include white supremacy and enslavement of blacks. The Union mission evolved during the Civil War. The secessionists remained fixed on terrorizing blacks. The Union accepted blacks as troops.

    Charleston's tourist industry is alive and well today because it thrives on a romanticized version of slavery. You can shop in former open air slave markets. There is a museum in a former indoor slave market. Hidden away are the slave graves paved over to become parking lots.


    The South was dirt poor thru the depression. It wasn't until cheap commercialism of the 50's that any crop plastic or cheap textile shot was affordable for anyone. Plastic (bakelite ) wasn't even available until what, 1935?when we're the first bumper stickers? Put things in perspective.

    Blame android for bizarre misspellings

    So you cannot point to anything of value that came out of the Confederacy?

    The loss of free labor collapsed the South.The South then terrorized the people who with Reconstruction. Once they chased them out, the Klan focused on terrorizing blacks.


    The Confederacy was destroyed and occupied - can you name anything of value that came out of Hiroshima, the charred remains of Dresden, the massive rubble of Warsaw?


    The South terrorized the people who came to help freedmen. The rape of the South by Northern carpetbaggers is another Southern lie as anyone who read W.E.B. DuBois would know. I'll provide a link to a review of Eric Foner's "Forever Free" that details the untruths Southerners have created about Reconstruction that have become accepted as reality. A lie that is another consequence of appeasement.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/books/review/29goodman.html


    This thread is well Wow! The problem for everyone who is defending this flag is that this  flag is used by a terrorist organization called the Ku Klux Klan. Historically, this flag was not used by the Confederate States of America. It was flown over no state capital at the time of the War.  It is a clear symbol of white supremacy.

    So has the flag historically been more about slavery or heritage? 

    You could say that both sides are correct if you look at how the flag has evolved, says David Goldfield, author of Still Fighting The Civil War.

    When the Confederacy debated the adoption of a new flag in Richmond in 1862, it was clear this was to be a symbol of white supremacy and a slavery-dominated society, he says.

    From the BBC

     

    It remains a symbol of white supremacy to this day.

    The flag wasn't a major symbol until the Civil Rights movement began to take shape in the 1950s, says Bill Ferris, founding director of the Center for the Study of Southern Culture at the University of Mississippi, It was a battle flag relegated to history but the Ku Klux Klan and others who resisted desegregation turned to the flag as a symbol.

    (From the same BBC article as above.)

    Why we continue to argue the merits of it's existence in 2015 is utterly astonishing. And it's still flying over the state capital of SC? What? That is outrageous.

    The Ku Klux Klan America's Forgotten Terrorists

    The Confederate flag symbolizes white supremacy — and it always has

    It cannot be separated from it's history.


    I don't remember anyone arguing the merits of its existence.  My only argument always has been that there are many in the south who see it as a part of their ancestral history and not as a symbol of white supremacy.  I've been attacked for my views over and over, but facts are facts.  The Confederate flag is a common sight in the south, including in cemeteries where they adorn Confederate graves.  I agree that it shouldn't be flying over public buildings but I won't agree that every person flying it is a white supremacist.  That's just not true.


    Criticism is not 'attacking'. Stop playing the victim game.

    Your analogy - which equated the flags of real nations - France Britain and Spain, with the rebel states war flag deserved rebuke as inapposite, and tending to the naive to say the least.

    I don't recall anyone saying every owner of a Confederate flag/symbol was a racist.


    So now I'm playing the victim game.  So now I'm naive.  So I dared to use the flags of "real nations" in my argument and I should be "rebuked".  And this is not a personal attack?  What would you call it?
     


    Of course Britain and France had lots of flags from non-native like the House Of lancaster and House Of Stuart and Aquitaine and so forth. Italy was a bastion of provinces until Garibaldi united them. Germany was an amalgamation from Bavaria and Prussia et AL thanks to Bismarck. This nation stuff is rather recent and if you look at how we and the British stole most of our territory it's hard to fathom the moral point being made - flags are invariably the bloody standards of atrocities and violence over reason. Even our flag on the moon was more about beating the Russians than human achievement.

    I posted about this woman claiming Southern heritage before. She wants everyone in her mostly black neighborhood to see her abominable flag. She is a disgrace.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/19/charleston-confederate-flag_n_7...

    She glows in harassing her black neighbors. She is a white supremacist.


    At some point those who cite the Confederate flag in any form have to admit they place their "heritage" over the issue of slavery. How does that differ from white supremacy? 


    Thanks for the links and history on the flag. It now seems inevitable that the reprobate Republicans of SC will take it down.


    TMac,most flags are used in acts of terrorism and intimidation, specifically war and more benignly sports. The Japanese placed theirs where they could in the Pacific, we replaced them with Stars and Stripes. That was our moral war - our invading Mexico, helping American settlers steal Texas, "How The West was Won", invading numerous Latin American countries multiple times, helping the French hold their colonial empire or invading Iraq under false pretenses were all forms of terrorism. But we had better weapons and/or logistics, so hooray for us. We somehow hover above our bloody history every day.

    The U.S. flag also flew over troops supporting black students going to school. It has flown over humanitarian missions. It flew over the fight against Hitler.

    The Confederate flag's only ideal was enslaving black people and the massacre of black troops that surrendered.


    When we're talking about wars over land like Texas it's hard for me to know who has the moral  high ground when two thieves are fighting over the booty.


    That's  a bit of a copout - the Aztecs were for one a bizarre tribe that terrorized the other native tribes of the region - enough that the others were willing to ally with the Spanish. The Spanish settled Mexico over 300 years before the Battle of the Alamo, so like any historical migratory movement - Genghis Khan towards Europe, the Turks into Europe, the Normans taking England, the Russians sweeping across Siberia to Kamchatka & Vladivostok - it was all well-established fact 300 years later. You can as easily excuse our stealing Spain from the Spanish and for that matter Canada from the French and English - nothing really belonged to the others so why not?

    Mexico at the time of the Alamo was an country established for decades. Our supporting the gripes of settlers to steal Texas was roughly similar to Hitler using Sudeten gripes to take the Sudetenland and then the rest of Czechoslovakia, as similar to the American expansion into Northwest Mexico (California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico).


    We have appeased white Southerners on the issue of the Civil War and the various forms of the Confederate flag at our peril. Dylann Storm Roof found inspiration at the website of the Council of Conservative Citizens, a direct descendent of the racist White Citizens Councils. Roof's racism was supported by the blogs on the Council of Conservative Citizens website.

    While we might consider Roof an anomaly, prominent Republications have spoken at Council of Conservative Citizens meetings or had members in various positions on their staffs. Trent Lott, Mike Huckabee, and Bob Barr have spoken at events. Haley Barbour dismissed the idea that the old White Citizens Council was racist. Bill Mahrer's BFF Ann Coulter wrote a chapter dismissing charges that the group was racist. Nikki Haley appointed a member of the Council of Conservative Citizens to her campaign committee. The ideals of the Confederate rag are the ideals of the White Citizens Council and the Council of Conservative Citizens. Appeasement over the Confederate rag only emboldens the racists.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/21/s-c-killer-dylan-roof-s...


    Here is Lindsay Graham defending the Confederate flag. Graham is defending Bubba who is forced to work with blacks and feels the world is against him. Graham ignores the affront to blacks but supports the idea that Bubba I stressed because he has to work with black people.

    http://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/lindsey-graham-lying-about-confederate...


    At the end of the day, the Confederate flag(s) represent a society based on slavery. It is not something to be celebrated.

    The Statue of Liberty was erected as a beacon of freedom. At the feet of the statue are broken shackles signaling the end of slavery. There is also a statement that all men are created equal. If some Southerners can't join the rest of the country in celebrating that statue, Fuck them. They can enjoy the statue of John C. Calhoun.


    Martin O'Malley has no clue when it comes to issues of race. He could not find a way to answer a question about racism after the Charleston shootings during an appearance on "Morning Joe" on Friday. Coupled with the baggage from police a use in Baltimore, the ex-Mayor handed the black vote to Clinton and Sanders.

    http://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/presidential-candidate-martin-omalley-...


    Peracles

    You continue in demonizing the Stars and Stripes. Flail away. Attack the flag. Burn the flag. It is your right as a United States citizens. strive to make the country better.

    No lets look at the Confederate rag. It murdered African-American troops because they considered blacks subhuman. That is the heritage of the confederate flag. The Confederate flab begins and ends with white supremacy. We have seen the country that flies the Stars and stripes at least make attempts to change.The Confederate flag is locked in hatred. All your attempts to dodge the wretched history of the rag fail.

    White supremacy allows people to tell black people that their objections to a flag celebrating racism belongs on the grounds of South Carolina state government. Governor Haley, Senator Graham, Representative Mark Sanford can say they support the flag remaining in place. They can state their support for the flag because the white supremacists who vote for them and argue for their Lost Cause will reelect them for towing the Confederate line.

    You can continue your attack on the flag of the United States. Your attack does not deflect the putrid ideas represented by the Confederate flags. Confederate flag supporters lie about the role of slavery. They lie about Reconstruction. They lie about the psychological impact of the culture of hate represented by the flag has on current day politicians.the white supremacists will continue their attack on voting after they dry their crocodile tears over the Charleston massacre. They remain trapped by the ideals of the Confederate rag.

    Edit to add:

    The rag went up in South Carolina as a rejection of the Civil Rights movement. The rag had/has nothing to do with heritage. Dylann Storm Roof celebrated the Confederate flag. and stepped on the American flag. The Confederate rag sends a clear message that black lives don't matter


    Off topic

    Today is the 51st anniversary of the abduction and murders of  James Chaney, Michael Schwerner, and Andrew Goodman in 1964.

    http://www.thenation.com/blog/209897/june-21-1964-civil-rights-workers-a...


    I'm not demonizing the Stars and Stripes - I could not care less. I'm criticizing (not "demonizing") US behavior in Iraq, Syria, Pakistan and Libya, as well as the Mexican War and Indian Wars, and some of our activity in Vietnam. If people on this thread talk about the symbolic hate of the Confederate Flag, they should imagine how abused people of different countries see our military and the standard it carries.

    As for flags and killing - guns, people with guns, bullets, and the holes all kill other people. Flags don't typically kill people, though occasionally there's an overexcited nut that takes the flag thing serious enough to change his behavior - the current nutcase seems to be an example of this.

    KKK robes and hoods were specifically use ton,greatly terrorize people. I don't know how much the Confederate flag was used to terrorize them - whether it was an essential part of the traumatizing experience, I don't know, so I'll withhold any comment.

    Re: the book on Reconstruction, someone in the comments noted the author starts with a preconceive agenda and works backwards, and instead the reviewer lists a book by W.E.B. Dubois that he finds much better and more honest.


    Should the Confederate battle flag remain on state grounds?


    As I said somewhere way back, if 60% of its victims feel strongly about it, probably not.

    I don't live in South Carolina, so they probably don't give jack what I think, and short of invading the state again or Salesforce CEO leading a boycott  - I know this hurts - it's still probably going to be decided within a "states' rights/own state decision", not some new federal law about flags.

    And as Q said just now, we know how to debate teh stupid while people are robbing and killing you/us.

    Did the guys banging Freddie Gray around in their van have a flag? Does it matter? Do the guys writing TPP have a flag? Does it matter? We helped the French and Italians overthrow Qaddafi and leave a stable country in chaos - how's our US flag symbolism doing? We let our neocons put their beloved patsy in the White House House and siphon off trillions to their friends as they invaded a country on false pretenses and fought for 10 years flying our proud flag to support "the troops" - that was over the last decade, including under the first black president - yet we're going to debate a 150 year old flag ad nauseum yet again, and even pretend that flag is exceptional when we have a coalition of fuckers we're part of flying their bloody exploitive flags over new parts of the world dominating more brown people. Hey, arms for Syria! (and ISIS, oops!) Hey, drones for Yemen and Pakistan! A new secret FBI-led war-on-drugs initiative in Mexico - yay!

    And then shit, we can't even keep simple terms like "concentration camp" and "POW camp" straight to even discuss Atrocities 101.

    When I was a kid, I heard this joke about a gang that pulled over a Polish guy and his girlfriend, and they told him not to get out of the car while they raped his girlfriend, and the come back and find him laughing and laughing because he got out of the car 3 times while they weren't looking. Sad stupid racist joke, but it keeps coming to mind when I'm here debating.

    We have a major turning point, a lesson on awful incindiary violence towards blacks, people who cold-bloodedly plan and go and talk calmly to and then murder people just because of their race - and our big outcome will not be racial sensitivity training for 200 million stupid vindictive white motherfuckers or sensible gun control or better procedures to track and prevent white supremacist attacks while our NSA & FBI are sniffing through a hundred million Facebook and email accounts - nope, we're going to take down a flag!!! Bully for us. A Confederacy of Dunces.


    Other than avoiding the question by debating concentration camps vs. POW camps, or talking about how we can't change it, do you think that the Confederate flag is any better than the Nazi flag? Do you think it makes any more sense to fly it?


    Via Twitter, one news source says that Senator Graham called the Confederate flag a "symbol of hate". The link from Daily Beast indicates that Graham said that  "People take that symbol and they use it in a hateful manner." I expect Senator Graham will clarify that he supports the race rag. He will say that he hates how the race rag is used by racists. He can't run for President as a Republican from South Carolina and not respect the Confederate flag.


    And so, once again in the United States of America, great discussions of history and policy and poverty and brutality and humanity end up on the solid ground... the flag.  

    Astonishing.

    And somehow, the Left, and the Center track almost magnetically to the very kinds of idiotic issues the powerful would prefer they debate.

    Because hey, the flag. 

    Anyway. Don't worry. They got lots more of that shit where the flag came from.


    The Republicans in Congress are not going to move on anything that might appear beneficial to Obama. Congress even punted on NSA surveillance. The flag issue becomes important long term because it does aid in further defining the Republicans for Democrats and some Independents. It pushes blacks and Latinos who might stay home to register to vote. The GOP is a clear and present danger to minority communities. It allows an alliance to be formed between Democrats and Independents. This helps because the Presidency should go to Democrats based on state demographics and the electoral college. The Senate can flip to the Democrats depending on turnout. This flag discussion is important because it could increase turnout. Voters will remember the Republican Presidential candidates' responses to the Charleston massacre and how they bowed to the racists on the flag.

    The Republican debate on the flag is to be outraged that the Confederate flag is being used as a racist symbol by "some people". People of good conscience realize that the Confederate flag became a racist symbol the moment they put the last stitch in the first Confederate flag*. This discussion can have long term political impact.

    * comedy from John Oliver


    From the Day Obama got in, it was ooooh, no, can't confront the bankers. Oooh no, can't have a real person in Cabinet. Ooooh no, can't can't can't. He always made the right call, always read the tea leaves just right, always went after the right issue, always defined it just so.

    So. Anyway. Well done with that. 

    And now it's the usual mumbo-jumbo about how somehow paying attention to this issue, defined THIS way, is JUST what we need to be doing. Ooooh, it further defines and will motivate registration and turnout and on and on.

    Yeah, sure, this is JUST the fight to be having.

    Psycho-white-terror-supremacist shoots up black church, kills 9, and the flag, that's where we wanna focus.

    Turn-out.

    Yeah, it's gonna drive turn-out waaaaay up.

    I can't see anything else that would be at all important.

    Anyway man, rock on. 


    I will rock on. All you have is criticism with no solutions. Like the movie critic who can't write a line of script or figure out lighting or a camera angle. The fact is that the GOP had a goal of making Obama a one term President. They have blocked much of his actions. Currently, people are fighting voter suppression. The courts are in the early phases of curtailing surveillance in response to law suits filed by activists. People are planning state responses if the wingNuts on SCOTUS gut Obamacare. No one is standing still. Stick your your sad jokes. You suck at political reality.

    If you have something, give us your magical plan.


    Nine Christians were slaughtered in a black church in Charleston, South Carolina. There are three posts about that massacre at Dagblog because people were shocked. The posts are our meager responses to the tragedy. You come in with your crap to criticize the blog response. There are posts dealing with Caitlyn Jenner and a host of other issues that you left alone. The fact that you find it objectionable for people to look at a white supremacist who found comfort in the Confederate flag in a state that has a Confederate flag on its state grounds speaks volumes about your personal pathology.

    The American flag and the South Carolina state flag fly at half-mast while the Confederate flag stays at full mast. You may not consider that worthy of some discussion, but you would be wrong. It shows how out of touch you are with the situation in the United States. 


    You see? This is what's interesting at Dagblog. You can basically call me a racist, and get away with it.

    And Mike and the others aren't going to slap you down for it. 

    To recap what you're saying, it is that:

    I didn't come in on other issues, but ONLY on the Confederate flag one. (hint hint)

    And then, you write that I'm defending a white supremacist. (oh boom, THERE it is)

    And then.... you reference my "personal pathology." (and yes, the twist.)

    Now, this is what you did last time. And then, we went to another site, and made it explicit that you deliberately said shit like this to cross the line with me. 

    And they let it go.

    So here's the deal. I'll explain myself, and then respond to the personal stuff.

    I'm trying to say that this flag is a made-up piece of crap, right? That is, it is a "symbol" CREATED by them, the racists, in order to mess with our minds. African Americans, liberals, etc. 

    But then, even though we know they made it up and made it into a symbol, a while lot of our people... bite. 

    They take the bait.

    Because they're angry. Mad.

    Which is off, really, because I'm the one with a reputation for getting angry. But I'm only trying to tell you to STOP BEING MAD ABOUT SYMBOLS AND HIT THEM WHERE IT REALLY HURTS.

    Because, if you all do not understand how easy it will be for them to come up with a new variant of this symbol, or a new and completely legal way of showing it, then hey - you're worse at politics than I thought.

    But me? I'd be looking at that poverty thing, economic things, class things. Stop messing with an easily-moved symbol game, and hit them where it hurts.

    BECAUSE IT'S EASY - TACTICALLY - FOR THEM TO MOVE THE FLAG DEBATE AROUND.

    Now. On your "me being a racist" thing. Mike continues to allow you to make these insinuations. So if I disagree, EVER, with how you approach issues of race, then you drag this in. So let me say this straight up. 

    You use your colour as a shield. And it works as a shield for what are, often, and of their own merit, in my opinion, really bad political stances. Ones which I completely disagree with, and do many other sensible people.

    It's sad. It's cowardly. It's bad debate.

    Now, I really like Mike, and know he hates this shit. And I actually like the people on here. Otherwise, why would I even come back to converse and say hi? And at times, I even like you rmrd. I understand what your aims are, and like you, hope they succeed. But this calling me a racist thing is a game, a scam, and it really does drive people off. 

    So here's a bit of my life.

    Probably most relevant, I almost lost my life in South Africa back in early 1986. Working for a rather large black-run organization you may have heard of. It happened while I was visiting my friends, the Tutus, in Soweto. Now, I wasn't some grand white liberator doing grand white things. I was just... helping. But it cost. It's affected me ever since.

    As for how I was raised, well... you decide how white supremacist it was.

    My family on one side ran our local railway station in Nova Scotia, and the harbour, and the post office. Maybe you can guess what their role was? Yeah. He was an end-node of the Underground Railway. And whatever you may think, my entire youth I had black people come up to me, and talk to me about how important the old guy had been to their families. 

    My grandmother on the other side saw her entire family eliminated by Hitler in the war.

    My best friend from South Africa was the head of the student union at Wits during the worst times, and barely escaped prison.

    My best friend from California is a pastor who has spent his entire adult life working in border cities, and directly at the Walls they've erected.

    My best friend from North Carolina works running a large non-profit with the #1 goal of providing housing to African-Americans.

    My best friend in Colorado was the most prominent "out" gay member of their Cabinet a number of years back.

    In University, my staunchest personal adversary was a certain US Senator from Louisiana, who I figured out long before a lot of other idiots. 

    My best friend protege in Western Canada has just won a stream of awards for building social enterprises that employ Native people. They were, not to bve too fine about it, ideas I helped him develop.

    My best friend in Ottawa runs organizations dedicated to ensuring Aboriginal children get families.

    My role as political advisor for years in England was with the most senior Jewish politician in the country.

    I was the first political candidate ever allowed on a particular Native reserve in Nova Scotia. Ever. Was it for my personal merit? No. It was my Grandmother, who had worked for decades with the locals on getting their work translated, and on getting their goods sold.

    I stood in the pulpit my local, and very conservative, racist, Baptist church, rmrd, at age 17, and in my very first public speaking occasion, I gave an entire sermon on how our church was neglecting the poor, the non-white, and the people living in shacks in our community. For that, at age 17, the Deacons and the Minister barred me, for life, from ever again speaking in that church.  

    I have racism in me, as does everyone I know. The fact that I can come on here and argue merely that the flag debate is sucking up too much oxygen and energy, and that maybe people should turn their focus elsewhere?

    Obviously, I must be a racist.

    I find it shameful, the way you act on these issues. And absolutely abhorrent that you are permitted to continue this way.

    A few years ago, I couldn't as easily speak on some of these aspects, and even now, have to restrain myself somewhat.

    I hope, at a minimum, that you understand perhaps why being called a white supremacist and someone who loves slavery rather angered me.  

    That's it for now, rmrd. I wish you a wonderful day, and - very seriously - hope that your hopes for African Americans come true. 

    Cheers.


    Have a nice day. Before you go..

    There were three posts about the South Carolina shooting. People are grieving and you come to criticize a discussion. Maybe in the past, Canadians could catch a break, but Canadians elected Rob Ford. Canadian political credibility is in the toilet. The personal pathology I was talking about is you being heartless enough to post the crap  you did. 

    If I Understand correctly, the election the election you talk about is one in Alberta where the right wing was voted out for the first time in 40 years. Impressive. In the U.S., we have the chance to keep the presidency, flip the Senate, and determine the future of SCOTUS.Forgive me if I am pumped.

    Have a nice day. Before you go..

    There were three posts about the South Carolina shooting. People are grieving and you come to criticize a discussion. Maybe in the past, Canadians could catch a break, but Canadians elected Rob Ford. Canadian political credibility is in the toilet. The personal pathology I was talking about is you being heartless enough to post the crap  you did. 

    If I Understand correctly, the election the election you talk about is one in Alberta where the right wing was voted out for the first time in 40 years. Impressive. In the U.S., we have the chance to keep the presidency, flip the Senate, and determine the future of SCOTUS.Forgive me if I am pumped.

    I asked for your magic plan.

    Edit to add: 

    I started off with the fact that nine people died. I described the symbolism of the flag. You overlooked that. The flag is not the be all and end all of actions being taken, I see people working against voter suppression and maximizing voter turnout. People in SC are working to keep an HBCU open despite the legislatures attempt to close it. All these things have been mentioned and you overlooked them all. You keep harping on taking action and are blind to mention of taking action.

    Other people have mentioned that this discussion is not just about the flag. You ignored them as well.

    For the record, I'm not calling you a racist, I'm calling you heartless.

    When I think of Canadian political opinion, I will think of Rob Ford ......and you.


    Gotta say that your response - that I must now, in addition to the rest, be like Rob Ford, crime-lord. famous racist and ex-Mayor of Toronto - is a bit bewildering. 

    Also, that idea that I'm heartless - because I disagree with your ranking of the political issues following the massacre.

    And the "people are grieving" line? So now you're gonna wrap a political tactics discussion in "people are grieving?" So your view, posted up on a blog, can have no responses?

    I think maybe you and I just plain shouldn't talk, rmrd. It never seems to go very well.


    So now you're gonna wrap a political tactics discussion in "people are grieving?" So your view, posted up on a blog, can have no responses?

    But you did. You cut me right off last time with "people are grieving." And out of respect I let you. I don't agree with delaying discussion because people are grieving. It's a horrible world and people are always grieving. "People are grieving" is the sop republican argument whenever there's gun violence.


    The other thing is I never cut off discussion. He says that I didn't allow responses. I never did.


     

    I viewed my responses again

    12:59 am You started by negating the obstacles Obama faced 

    07: 04 am I note people are fighting voter suppression, NSA surveillance, and attacks on Obamacare

    08:04 am My post 

    Nine Christians were slaughtered in a black church in Charleston, South Carolina. There are three posts about that massacre at Dagblog because people were shocked. The posts are our meager responses to the tragedy. You come in with your crap to criticize the blog response. There are posts dealing with Caitlyn Jenner and a host of other issues that you left alone. The fact that you find it objectionable for people to look at a white supremacist who found comfort in the Confederate flag in a state that has a Confederate flag on its state grounds speaks volumes about your personal pathology.

    The American flag and the South Carolina state flag fly at half-mast while the Confederate flag stays at full mast. You may not consider that worthy of some discussion, but you would be wrong. It shows how out of touch you are with the situation in the United States. 

    This was in response to your post

    Psycho-white-terror-supremacist shoots up black church, kills 9, and the flag, that's where we wanna focus.

    The flag response is one part of the ongoing battle. We can fight the imagery of the flag along with the other actions. We can discuss what prompted the shooter, despite you not liking the focus and giving us advice to look away.

    I had addressed the actions people were taking, you still found it objectionable to address the flag issue.

    01:02 pm. You say that I called you a racist.

     


    Your points are valid on the flag rmrd.

    Flags can be a very important symbol and banner. They can be objects of pride. For extremists or 'psycho's' as Q calls them, they can be symbols of twisted hateful ideologies. It's why Germany bans the swastika. It's why South Carolina is going to remove this symbol of racism from state grounds. It may be a small step, but it was bought at a very high price, with 9 innocent lives.

    This isn't about Q, Q's biography, Q's great grandparents, my biography or experiences or yours, it's not about anyone here.

    It's about the black citizens of South Carolina living under that flag, and soon, no more.


    Agreed. There is finally a realization by the Republican Party of South Carolina that blacks have feelings just like whites. The flag cannot e a permanent part of South Carolina's future. The South Carolina battle flag came out in 1962 in defiance of the Civil Rights movement. Family and personal history does not trump working to have the flag come down. It is condescending to suggest that the people of South Carolina can't deal with multiple issues.TThe money spent maintaing the rag can now be used for other things.


    Q, I know this wasn't addressed to me, and apparently it didn't impress the person you addressed it to, but I read it and found the biographical parts inspiring.  I know it took a bit to open up with this.  You've done far more than I ever have or ever could do to make this world a place we would want to live in.  Not to get gushy or anything (You would hate that) but I couldn't let this go without telling you that I admire you even when you're scaring the hell out of me. 

    So sez.
     


    ditto.


    Far out, as we used to say!

    Maybe when 'they' scare the hell out of us (without a gun; hahahahah) that is a goooood thing.

    What do I know?


    ToS warning, rmrd, for "your personal pathology" and all that it connotes.

    PS Q, as I've told you before, I don't read every comment. You know how to reach me, and you are welcome to let me know if you have been personally attacked.


    The GOP politics of the last 40 years has included the southern backlash to civil rights. The Southern Cross Battle Flag was used as a symbol of that backlash. The "Stars and Bars" flag of the Confederacy was actually a different flag that flew for only a couple of years. The Southern Cross was then added to a white flag in the left hand corner that flew for a while but that flag was always getting mistaken as a surrender flag so they added a red stripe on the end. So they actually combined the British Union Jack with the French flag. 

    Mississippi state flag included the Southern Cross in their flag in the late 1800's. It is still there today. This I remember when Old Miss was ordered to desegregate the Northern Virginia Regimental Flag was raised over the University in defiance.  I believe that was the first time it was used as a symbol of resistance to civil rights. Georgia added a Southern Cross to their flag during the civil rights era but removed it 15 years ago. South Carolina refused to take down the Battle Flag and only moved it off the capital building that was about the same time Georgia got rid of the Southern Cross off of their state flag. There was a big debate about it's use then but South Carolina Legislature came up with this compromise. It has remained a symbol of defiance to equal rights.  South Carolina had a different flag during the civil war that had the St George Cross on it. So the Southern Cross is not even part of their state's history. 

    The reason the Battle Flag of Lee's Army has always been put on the Confederates graves at Arlington was because Lee's Plantation and was used for the cemetery.  He lived in the house until he died so that tradition was started by him. He did this out of respect for all the men who died under his command.  It was a regimental thing not a symbol of politics.  All the other regimental flags of the Confederacy are in museums and the only other one you might see at a reenactment is the "Bonny Blue,"  Today most people in the south don't know much about the Civil War history unless they are reenactors or collectors. Great, great grand dad may not even fought under the Southern Cross. 

    Another important thing is the KKK also adopted it.  I know they used it during the push for civil rights. So for African Americans this is a symbol of hate.  Many still remember the burning crosses and the Battle Flags. This time the push back on this is much stronger then it was in 2000 and for very good reasons. The GOP has used for the last 40 years dog whistles and the war on drugs to appease the white supremeness vote to win elections. They have shown nothing but disrespect for our current President. 

    The country is now going to hang this symbol of hate around the GOP's neck.  

    I agree with rmrd000 on this. The Democratic Party will benefit from South Carolina's refusal.  

     

     


    Ken Kesey's second book was "Sometimes a Great Notion". But it might as well have been called "Never Give a Inch" (sic). I can't find the scene from the film, but it looks kinda like this:

     

    This is the real Southern flag. The other one you put on a flagpole - this one they carry around in their pockets. The funny thing is, they don't have to know a durn thing about the war whatsoever - just this magical little symbol. If someone wanted them to wear it around their neck, well the chance was in 1865. Methinks the enlightened world need come up with a different strategy if it wants the South to change.

     


    The South can position their fingers wherever they want in film, in books, and on stage. When they show us the finger in public, there will be pushback. Sometimes pushback will be with a fist. Other times, it will be by taking a Confederate battle flag off state grounds.

    The South could be focusing on education, accepting climate change as real, healthcare and a host of other issues. If white South Carolinians want to stay stuck in the antebellum period, have at it. They can do it in museums and in the privacy of their homes. If the images above are what Southerners want to be known for, they that can't complain when they become the national white laughing stock.


    I don't think anyone's laughing at Dennis Hopper or Johnny Cash.


    They ARE laughing at the Southerners who mimic their attitude. We laugh at Huckabee because he gave the finger to Jay-Z and Beyoncé for suggestive lyrics, yet he performed "Cat Scratch Fever" with Ted Nugent. The song describes stroking the vagina of an underage girl. We laugh at Newt Gingrich who gave the finger to Bill Clinton for adultery despite Gingrich leaving his cancer-stricken wife in the dust. We laugh at Nikki Haley who said South Carolina was post-racial because they elected her. Note that she changed her name from Nimrita to Nikki to join the club. We laugh at Southerners all the time.


    Huh? Misunderstood lyrics some - inspired prolly by Rolling Stones - bet you never saw her scratch like that, bet your Mama never saw you scratch my back...


    Well, I make the pussy purr with the stroke of my hand
    They know they gettin' it from me
    They know just where to go when they need their lovin' man
    They know I'm doin' it for free
     
     
    Edit to add:
     

    Fuck that, Q. All sorts of relevant, interesting, important subjects get attention around here and other places close by. Day after day. This is just one of them. And frankly, it's interesting and meaningful. As for the powerful, they're so completely in charge of this shit show they couldn't care less what we debate. 


    Your last sentence is way off. They care very much what you debate. 

    And as long as it's the latest outrage, they're just fine. Cause they manufacture that stuff. Or perhaps you're unacquainted with the American Right? 

    Either we move to more challenging questions, or we fight an endless stream of outrages.


    You're just jealous because all you got is a leaf (ok, and a good hockey team to go with it). And now it's an electric car. A Japanese one at that.

    What you need is a good war - that'll revive your, ahem, flagging spirits. Maybe you can sneak over and take Juneau (or Palin, please....) or Greenland looks vulnerable. Or you could race the Russians for North Pole oil & mineral deposits, but that sounds a little too useful and relevant. Maybe coordinate some new Northeast socialist state with Bernie Sanders, call it St. Lawrencia and use Lawrence of Arabia's flag - and hand out beer. That'll do it. A good time was had by all.


    LOL...And you even threw in Klondike Barbie. 


    Yeah whatever. We here in America can and are fighting all those battles. We can fight for the policies we want and still fight to get the flag taken down. I'm not blind to reality. We're losing many if not most of the fights. I'm not happy about it. If we win on the flag it will be a minor triumph. But I'll once again remind you of who your Prime Minister is. So you can once again brag about how the party you support didn't lose nearly as bad last time.


    No, sorry, you're not fighting those other battles. Not really.

    This sort of shit is endless though. The Right, the Powerful, they manufacture shit to be outraged by.

    You all then get to be outraged.

    There's no analysis of poverty or power, nobody in the streets, nothing on jobs leaving, nada.

    But hey, have at that flag buddy. 

    Oh yeah. That nationalist riposte of yours? It's ummmm, Republican. "Oh, I got a boo-boo, somebody said something bad about my country. They don't live inside the borders. Don't respect our flag. I'm gonna throw poo at 'em." 

    Since when did someone arguing that peoples' priorities were wrong become something that sensible people were allowed to rebut through stupid knee-jerk nationalism?

    It was a jack-off thing to say when you did it before, and it still is.

    Grow up.

    Oh yeah. I know we've been failing up here. Never claimed we weren't.

    In fact, I'm trying to get OUR priorities shifted too. Same as I'm discussing here.

    Give your head a shake, Ocean Kat.

     


    Also, you know hat ocean-kat? you need your ass kicked on this.

    The guy who led the party last time, and almost won, as a 3rd party? He was a friend of mine. And died just after the election. And it was a big deal up here. And they're renaming shit after him. And I live in his riding. 

    And I told you all this,a nd you're being some smarmy little shit about it. On TOP of using exactly the same sort of horseshit love-it-or-leave-it asshole redneck argument dicks have used on us for decades.

    It's a punk move, my friend.

    To which I'll just add, we recently threw out the hardest right provincial government in Canada, our Texas equivalent, and brought in... the socialists. Who are also now leading nationally. 

    So, in sum, let me just say that your manners stink, your argument is as worthless as most right-wing arguments are, and your political path ain't necessarily perfect. 

    Keep on keepin' on.


    Also, you know hat ocean-kat? You need your ass kicked on this.

    The guy who led the party last time, and almost won, as a 3rd party? He was a friend of mine. And died of cancer just after the election. And it was a big deal up here. And they're renaming shit after him. And I live in his riding. 

    And I told you all this.

    And yet, you're being a nasty little shit about it. What's with that?

    On TOP of using exactly the same sort of horseshit love-it-or-leave-it asshole redneck argument dicks have used on us for decades.

    It's a punk move, my friend.

    To which I'll just add, on the news side, we recently threw out the hardest right provincial government in Canada, our Texas equivalent, and brought in... the socialists. Who are also now leading nationally. 

    So, in sum, let me just say that at this moment, your manners stink. Your argument is as worthless as most right-wing arguments are. And your political path ain't necessarily perfect. 

    Sorry for thinking differently.


    Again, what ever. You write a post dripping with condescension directed at us and you're up set that I point out that you're losing the fight too.

    Yeah I remember he was your friend and last time I let it go completely out of respect. But face a little reality dude. You're a nasty little shit 70% of the time. You're a better writer than me, a better writer than most. You blazed on to TPM like an exploding sun with a few brilliant blogs that blew everyone, including me, away and then turned into a nasty little shit. When ever people got tired of the nasty you'd toss out another absolutely brilliant blog to restore your cred so you could go back to being a nasty little shit. And I do mean shit. You sink lower and lower till you're dredging the bottom of the barrel with a nasty puerile types of shit joke. And no one will call you on it because you can be so fucking brilliant the rare times you want to be.

    Yeah it was hard core and yeah I knew it and yeah I did it anyway because brother, you earned it. You play hardball almost all the time. I respect you and I like you but you don't get a free pass on the nasty because you can be so fucking brilliant.

    You don't know and I don't know what the people on dagblog are doing. But here in tiny little Arivaca pop 650 we're on the street. Just a month ago we were confronting the Border Patrol at the check point. It was body to body as we resisted when they pushed us back. A couple of months ago we packed the courthouse when a preliminary decision was made on the ACLU suit we've filed.  I've been there on the street several times in the last year.

    Border issues isn't what I would chose to fight. It's not the most important issue we're facing as a country. But it's an important enough issue. It's the one that most directly affects the people living here a few miles from the Mexican border. I guess if you knew what we were up to you'd mock it like you mock the fight over the Confederate flag. But I don't have the people skills to gather people together for a fight. I'm just a foot soldier for what ever issue the leaders can gather the people together for. I'd like to do more but this is the best I can do. I'm ok with that and unaffected by your judgment.

     


    Ok, Oceankat. Anyway man, I still like ya. But maybe you could do me a favour and go read the thing I wrote back to rmrd, as a prelude to this comment, eh?

    Then maybe go back to what I first wrote, and decide whether it was really "dripping with condescension."

    Anyway. I am genuinely glad you're working on the border issues. I've got family in Tucson, and lots of SoCal friends, and I appreciate your effort.

    On substance?

    I was just trying to say that the flag - as a political battle - is one that is easily altered, remanufactured and moved by them. And thus, when there are limited hours and limited energies, perhaps not worth quite so much wrath. (Albeit it is worth some. Agreed.) 

    And the nationalist thing? Whereby people on one side of a border can't argue that the political debate on the other side is too easily dragged from the material to the symbolic? That's still not a good stance.

    Anyway man, good luck at the border. Stay out of the sun, drink plenty of fluids, and read your Dick Day Dayly.

    Cheers.


    The more I thought about this, the more annoyed I became. Annoyed, not angry. You have picked fights with numerous people on this blog, and now you claim victimhood. If I was going to call you a racist, I would have called you a racist. I think you are ill-informed on United States politics and race issues in the United States. I think that you did not take time to read what I wrote about the actions people are taking on other more important issues. I think because the flag is not important to you, it should not matter to others. Color you arrogant. I did not call you a racist.

    I didn't read your rant about your life, because it had some nonsense about using my skin color as a shield. This again shows your ignorance on the issue of race. Ignorant not racist. You love picking fights then you whine when challenged. We can have discussions, just be an adult and not so thin-skinned. I am not the only person who had a problem with crap you posted. Get over yourself.


    I have no idea what prompted you to make a connection (up above) between me and Rob Ford. I mean, I know he's a violent criminal (which I'm not) and a crack-user (which I'm not) and Canada's most notorious racist (oh, gee, might that be it?)

    But anyway, here we are now, and I'm down here talking to someone else - and I had hoped, trying to put some personal affairs in order - you chase me down to broadcast your views to everyone that:

    - I pick fights with numerous people

    - and am claiming victimhood

    - but that you never called me racist

    - And that I am ill-informed about U.S. politics

    - and did not read what you wrote

    - And of course, the flag is not important to me

    - and I'm arrogant

    - And you didn't read my "rant" about my life

    - And I'm ignorant about race

    - and love picking fights

    - and whine when I'm challenged

    - and am thin-skinned

    - crap I posted

    - and that others have problems with me too.

    Well gee, that's certainly an on-point discussion of the issues, and not at all just a long list of personal criticisms.

    Although, interesting to me that you claim to not have read my "rant" about my life. Cause, you know, most people would. And in fact, I'd bet you did.

    Yup. I think actually you're upset that you might have misjudged someone. 

    Someone you thought was a white supremacist who loves that Confederate flag and wanted to have slaves... but then maybe turned out to be not that way at all. Not a racist. Well, what good news, eh?

    Yessir, I think maybe you're just overcome by joy at such good news.

    So that's what I'm going with.

    You're just overcome by joy.

    Great day, rmrd! Thanks!


    You post your opinion of me and object to my "broadcasting'" my opinion of you? Not an expected response. It is a great day if the flag comes down. Even if the flag does not come down, the supporters of the flag resting on state grounds will be tarnished. The work in South Carolina to keep South Carolina state open, improve health care, end voter suppression and a host of other issues continues.


    You know, I didn't and don't really think about it as a cross border issue. If someone from Wisconsin started ragging on how poorly we're doing in Arizona I'd have said the same thing. Damn it you live in Wisconsin which is a generally blue state and I spend my time fighting  redneck racists and you're giving me a hard time because I'm not picking the right issues and the right candidates. So tell me how it's done when you can't even win in blue Wisconsin.

    I think that's a fair question. Maybe I'm still holding on the anti-hillary rant from the last time. I'm sorry about your friend. He was likely a good man and his loss likely hurts the movement. But I still think it's a fair question.

    It's not personal for me no matter how heated the debate gets. If you're in Tucson bring the relations down to Ruby. It's an interesting historical site, a dozen ruins, a dozen buildings, 300,000 bats and  a lake clean enough to swim in. If it's my day off I'll give you a tour. Usually I just give you a map. michael_thistle at hotmail dot com

    edit to add:  Maybe people don't get me. None of it's personal. Q called me a nasty little shit. I gave back as hard as I was given. Sometimes emotions run high. After the debate I'll put it away. I just had an intense heated debate with Ramona but I'd be happy to welcome her to the ghost town I caretake. Scrapped with PP off and on over the years but he'd be welcome. Had it out with wattree but anyone from dagblog would be welcomed if they came to Ruby. Even the people I haven't had a big contentious debate with. I don't expect any dagblogger will ever show up but if someone was interested in historical ghost towns and in the area. If anyone did I'd go out of my way to see they had a good time here.


    Ocean....Hell I look forward to your comments.

    Q does what he does; somehow he never attacks me and I never attack him

    Q is like a brother.

    But there is not some council that seeks to attack you.

    It never happened.

    I love Ramona,  I always have.

    And I have never seen her ATTACK anyone.

    Maybe I missed the point where this happened.

    I recall you were kind of mad at me.

    I like you Ocean; I love your comments.

    I AINT AGAINST YOU.

    Please stay here and contribute.

    That is all I got.


    I've been to Tucson twice now, and never thought I'd ever be through that way. 

    Third time, I'll come by Ruby. 

    It's not a problem, Ocean Kat. 

    Hope all is well.


    Like you need direction from an idiot like  me.

    This was a nice thing to say.

    Anytime you do something nice, people should just ignore it.

    hahahahahah

    I still love you Q.

    Been with me since the 'beginning'.

    You stay safe.

    Just try a little kindness, like you have shown to me all these years:

    http://<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MvswocNN-g8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    I do not even like Glenn hahahahahahah

     


    Always other options, like Phoenix over Tucson, Glen vs. Glenda...?

     


    I do not know what to do with you. hahahahha

    You and Q should be under guard. hahahahah

    Asking you to be nice would be like asking wolverines to be nice. hahahha

    Anyway, we do not have a decent blog here with both of you.

    Everybody is mad here.

    Glenn does not work here.

    hhahhahahahah

    Just as an aside I cannot watch Morning Joe because of Mika. hahahha I  of course despise Joe but I cannot take Mika at all. Her voice alone just sends me into nightmares from which I never recover. hahhaha

    I am just asking you to say something nice; to other people. I mean saying something nice to me is a waste of time. hahahhaah

    Oh mama can this really be the end?

     

     

     

     

     

    I get so lost.

    But I think you know how to get me out of this hole.

    the end


    Hmm. 


    Only problem is the border/gulf between us is a might wide.

    Anyway, a Youtube smackdown's in order - voting starts at the bottom.


    That's a problem for you?


    Not as nomadic as I once was. Chillun & responsibilities, ya kno? Plus just simply a lot o' miles. Don't get back to the USoA much.


    You gosh-darned hippie kids! Galivantin' about, children breedin' children and always honkin' down all them drugs... why doncha jest come on home and git a job down to the mill? Like cousin Aubrey done. That's Aubrey, the one with the GOOD eye.


    Q & Kat, pls cut the personal shit. You're playing into the hands of Power's master plan to distract and divide.


    Q-Kat, it makes me think of Kid 'n Play. The Power's master plan to join together.


    We need a break down here, quinn. We're rattled, angry and unnerved by shit we can't fix so we're desperately grabbing the lowest hanging fruit. Normally we use guns, but this time even that doesn't seem to work. It's not even a goddamned religious issue, and that's just pissing people off 'cause, you know, religious stuff. So let us have a flag fight, okay?


    :-) Best comment on this thread.

    You know what's even better than complaining about a flag? Complaining about complaining about a flag.

    Know what's better than that? Complaining about complaining about complaining about a flag.


    We aren't just talking about the flag Q. You know that. That flag is just a symbol of one of our many social ills. This one is extremely important though, because it is the haze of hate that falls over our entire nation. It has shaded our politics for so long, and it is part of the reason that income inequality continues to worsen.  When the white union middle class started to see "the other" as impeding their foray into the economic advancement, and propagandists stoked the flames to keep us very angry about "the other" taking all our stuff and we were separated from each other by hate, which allowed the guys you hate to much to secure their rule over us.  That killer said all the same things out loud, your taking our stuff, you have to go.. my god. It's right there in our faces and we still are unable to do anything about it. They, those folks you hate,  rely on us never dealing with the deeper issues, because it keeps us divided and easily conquered.   We are far to busy fighting each other to do anything about those guys taking advantage of us.


    They, those folks you hate,  rely on us never dealing with the deeper issues, because it keeps us divided and easily conquered.   We are far to busy fighting each other to do anything about those guys taking advantage of us.

    Exactly, Tmac.  It's why nothing ever, ever gets done.  And it looks like it never will.  Here on Dagblog alone we've spent way more time arguing about that flag than we ever did talking about the church murders by an admitted racist and what it means on a broader level. 

    We can all agree that racism is evil but eventually we have to get to the part where we work at trying to figure out what large-scale things we can do to end it.

     


    If Presidential candidates can't call out racism in these murders, and most can't, we have to start with the basics. The Civil War was about the South wanting to expand slavery. The South was appeased by the Fugitive Slave Act and other legislation but they were not satisfied. The Confederacy was about Negroes being subhuman. Police departments were formed to catch slaves. The Citadel  was built to put down slave revolts. Emanuel AME was burned to the ground because of a slave revolt. The church sits on a street named for a a pro-slavery zealot. We can't get to the big stuff if there are lies about the basics. 

    Edit to add:

    Black Republicans face ridicule because they are viewed as being forced to either remain mute on issues of race or to solely blame problems in the black community for the state of blacks in American. Ben Carson has been "bold" enough to say that the crime was race based. He leaves the flag decision to the state of SC. Senator Tim Scott is waiting for a meeting with SC politicians to be told his stance on the Confederate flag.

     http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/21/politics/republicans-confederate-flag-char...


    While your first paragraph is the substance, the meat of the problem, your edit makes it the prelude to what you seem to consider the real issue--the confederate flag.  You've effectively watered down the power of your words and brought it back to the flag, when there is so much more to talk about.  And you did it in answer to my comment, where I stressed the need to talk about racism in broader terms.  So can it be done?

     


    The two issues are intertwined. I think the Republicans are shocked to find themselves in the line of fire on where they stand on race, so they may be open for discussion.


    They may be intertwined but they're not equal in weight.  Racism takes many forms and affects many more people than those in the south.  There is a huge campaign right now to take down that flag, making the issues of poverty, inequity, incarceration, and voicelessness in black communities take a back seat to it.  We have a unique chance to take on racism full bore.  The flag is an issue but it's not the only issue. 


    Given that this is an election season the House Republicans are not going to allow movement on anything of substance, but activists, and legislators should try to move the ball forward. A first step is halting voter suppression, health in the South, and financing HBCUs.


    We can walk and chew gum, Ramona. Nothing is taking a back seat to the current demands of decent people everywhere that South Carolina remove the Confederate flag from the capitol grounds. And it's about to happen! It's a tangible, meaningful blow against racism. We need these victories to comfort and replenish us. Rejoice, for fuck's sake. These achievements are so rare. 


    Thx 

    The flag issue is not going to make people forget that poverty still exists. We can do healthcare, Gay Rights, Civil Rights, etc.


    You're missing my point, Kyle, but I don't feel like chewing it over again.  I'm happy that the flag on the Statehouse grounds is probably going to be taken down.  But I'm hoping the momentum brought about by the AME church murders won't be squandered by settling on something symbolic rather than on the very real issues caused by nationwide racism.  Yes, I'll rejoice but I'll probably spend less time on it than I will on all the other issues racism demands we address.


    We're missing each other's points. Fair enough. In lots of ways this post is an exercise in hairsplitting, anyway. So... I think the sharp focus and swift action we're witnessing the past several days with respect to the Confederate flag is the momentum you're hoping for in action. It's meaningful. It's inspiring. It's real. Reducing it to a symbolic gesture in the long, hard struggle against racism strikes me as disrespectful to those folks who haven't enjoyed the luxury of thinking about it that way. And of course, given the choice between removing the flag or x, y and z, I'd choose x, y and z. But that's not the way this shit works.  


    I don't mean to suggest that symbolism can't be a catalyst for change.  It has been throughout history:  In fact, I'm excited about what has happened today in So. Carolina.  I may have to admit I've been wrong about the impact, considering what is happening in Mississippi already, and considering that Walmart has announced there will be no more Confederate flags in their stores. 

    I want to see racism become something shameful.  I want people to understand that in order for us to hold our heads high we have to stop all forms of discrimination--racism, bigotry, homophobia. . .all of it.  But you're right.  It's a start.  And I'll stop grousing now.


    Ramona, look at the wonder unfolding. Clementa Pinckney's body will lay in state at the Capitol later tis week. The state legislature may be ale to vote in both houses in time for the Confederate flag to be gone before Reverend Pinckney's body arrives.

    We have found that the website that inspired Dylann Storm Roof, the Council of Conservative Citizens, is openly racist. It states that it believes that the United States is part of European society. non-whites are not welcome.Muttiple republicans have received donations from the organizations leader. The Council condemns the massacre but acknowledges the "legitimate grievances" of Dylann Roof. The GOP is forced to examine how complicit the part has been in serving the needs of the racists.They have to free themselves of the Southern Strategy to save their own souls. Lee Atwater, the architect of the strategy, was from South Carolina.

    The cleansing can be done.


    It's been an amazing couple of days, all right.



    That's one reason to display the rebel flag that I can get behind. Love it!


    Yeah, I loved the imagination. And the understanding that the best way to change symbolic battles is to subvert them, transform them, anything but dig trenches in front of them.

    Saw it because William Gibson rec'd it on Twitter, funny enough. He's a good follow.


    According to CNN, both Graham and Nikki Haley will today call for the removal of the Confederate flag from S.C. state property.


    Haley is supposed to have a press conference at 4:00 P.M. ET to address the issue

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/south-carolina-confederate-flag...

    The hilarity here is that Tim Scott was waiting for a meeting with SC Republicans after the funerals to state a position on the flag. If he is not part of the conference, he has been emasculated.


    The Southern Baptists are calling for Southerners to reject the Confederate flag as a demonstration of Christian love for their brothers.

    http://www.russellmoore.com/2015/06/19/the-cross-and-the-confederate-fla...

    A former white supremacist with ties to Rand Paul apologizes for supporting the Confederate flag.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/22/the-southern-avenger-re...

    Times are changing 


    Fox is now calling the Confederate flag the Democratic Party flag. Historically, slave-owners and Confederates were Democrats. Democrats ruled over Jim Crow. When the Civil Rights era came in, Dixiecrats left the Democrats for the GOP. When LBJ signed the Civil Rights bills, the South went from Democratic to Republican. Fox ignores current history.

    http://www.politicususa.com/2015/06/22/fox-news-desperate-calls-confeder...


    I think they should do a Man on the Street down there to see how many racists are Democrats.  That should shut them up.


    What a long, strange thread it's been.

    It occurs to me that what's happened here has been a release, of sorts. Among people who don't physically know each other, yet strangely felt comfortable enough to mourn together. Not in the way most would recognize - but in the way people do when they're too deeply hurt to be polite. Or to seek friendship, speak kindly, consider feelings or to give a rat's ass about correctness. Yet mourning it's been, just the same.

    That flag. Has it been about the flag? Mostly, I suppose, but the same undercurrents of pain that bleed through that symbol have bled on this page. Not just here, of course, but here is where we are ... and for better or worse we turned to each other. We also turned on each other - it just works that way sometimes - so we're battered, alittle bruised. It's okay though. We'll heal.


    Barefooted, thank you.  We're all probably still in shock and it might have been better to wait a while before we let loose.  It isn't catharsis if it's hurtful.


    I'm not so sure about that, Ramona. When it's raw and no amount of logic or reason can touch it, that's when we're the most vulnerable. And when anger mixes it all up it's almost therapeutic to punch someone willing to punch back. That's the beauty of a place like this ... screw hurt feelings or thin skin, to hell with saying the right thing and by the way - thanks for being able to take it. We have loved ones and friends to share our softness; now and then the hard kind of hurt needs an outlet, too.

    If you squint and hold your tongue just right, you can almost see trust in here. Almost.


    Missy, I am lost on this blog.

    I do not get it.

    Maybe you can explain it to me?

    Why is everybody mad?

    I did not get this from the beginning.

    All my friends are mad?

    It is not your fault; I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE 'ARGUMENT'!

    I feel like an idiot, which is nothing out of the ordinary.

    What the hell is the argument?

    I somehow missed this entire mess.

    You can email me of course.

    I do not understand this.

    Just look at my News Blog today!

    The Confederate Flag must be gone?


    Oh, Dick, there is no explanation. It actually looks worse all at once than it did a little at a time ... you really didn't watch it unfold? Well, good for you.

    Sigh. Yeah, some people got mad, some just annoyed, some frustrated and some went completely crazy. Fortunately it was temporary insanity, for the most part. But if you look a bit deeper, Dick, you'll find a lot of thoughtful and heartfelt conversation between folks who care about the country and the people in it. And that's never, ever a bad thing.

    Steam needed to be blown off, and it was. Don't fret. Besides - it's not like you've never seen good people morph into short-term assholes before. Happens all the time!


    Thanks Missy.

    But I just still do not get it!

    Take down the NAZI Flag.

    That is all I got!

    Thank you for your attempt at sanity?

    I do not get it.


    News update:

    The Republican Speaker of the House in Mississippi says that it is time for the Confederate emblem to be removed from the Mississippi state flag

    "As a Christian, I believe our state's flag has become a point of offense that needs to be removed. We need to begin having conversations about changing Mississippi's flag."

    Walmart will no longer sell Confederate flag merchandise

    Chambers of Commerce and South Carolina based businesses are supporting removal of the Confederate flag. Michelin's CEO supports moving the flag.


    Yeah I just read this within the last couple of hours and I might have acknowledged it in my 'News blog'.

    I still think that this is a big deal.

    Like I said in my short news blog.

    THIS IS A BIG DEAL!


    The GOP is going to have to climb out of the cesspool  of racism they have created since Barry Goldwater. Goldwater was willing to garner votes from segregationists on the basis of state's rights. Nixon had Lee Atwater's (a SC native) Southern Strategy. Haley Barbour didn't think that the Racist White Citizen Councils were that bad. The Council morphed Into the current Council of Conservative Citizens it remains a racist Euro-Centric organization. 

    The Council of Conservative Citizens leader donated to Republican Presidential candidates and legislators. Among those receiving donations are black Republicans Allen West (R-FL) former Congressman from Florida. and Mia Love (R-NV) current Congresswoman from Nevada. The fact that a racist donated to African-American Republicans feeds a narrative that black Republicans are sell outs. Tim Scott (R-SC) the current Junior a Senator from South Carolina did not take a leadership role in the flag debate. In fact, he was going to have a conference after the funerals to decide what his position on the Confederate flag should be. It is a sad commentary but many blacks do not view black Republicans in a positive light.

    I'm not going to link to the Council's website, but one thing you get when you join is a pamphlet on the Martin Luther King Jr Holiday co-authored by the late Republican Senator from North Carolina, Jesse Helms.


    The Governor of Virginia is now asking that the Confederate flag be removed from license plates issued by the state. This follows SCOTUS' decision that Texas could ban Confederate license plates.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/23/virginia-confederate-flag-licen...


    The Confederate rag still flies above the SC Capitol as the body of Reverend and State Senator Clementa Pinckney is et to arrive around noon ET. Sad.

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/charleston-church-shooting-main/


    Black South Carolinians are elated by the prospect of removing the Confederate flag from state grounds. There is a push to remove other Confederate symbols. Corporations are no longer selling Confederate merchandise. Everyone realize removing these item will not abolish racism. In the midst of all this, Democrats are making an attempt to repair the hole left in the Voting Rights Act following a decision by the John Roberts court who told us the racism was over.


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