Book of the Month

I clicked on recommend to help your thread stay alive.

Speaker Pelosi does appear to have a measured view of what happened based on these remarks of hers:

"House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said today that she believed sexism against Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton was a factor in the 2008 Democratic primary fight, but added that the Democratic presidential candidate also benefited from being a woman."

Yeah - I know not the most engaging post but for the first time in my 31 years I was truly speechless.

Shorter Pelosi:

"Hillary who?"

At least I knew who Hillary was when I voted for her. The more accurate question is Obama who? The FISA sell out is but the beginning and although Obama will be an improvement over McCain, it will be marginal at best. Congratulations on the infomercial candidate winning the primary. He had the audacity to hope that you guys wouldn't see through his bullshit before it was too late and he was right!

That's it. I'm starting my own Hillary support group called FU: Fuck Unity. Yes we'll vote for Obama over McCain, but to hell with all these fake ass democrats who have lost the basic core values of what our party used to stand for including respect for all including women. You deserve the inauthentic infomercial candidate that you have chosen to lead our party.

I was wondering how long it would take you to settle into that position. It's the only one that makes sense. But I doubt Obama needs our votes.

You do know that Hillary didn't even bother to vote last time stripping telecom immunity came up in the Senate? (Obama voted in favor of stripping.) I'm angry at Obama, but Hillary is at least as bad on this issue if not worse. And clearly worse on national security policies overall.

Huh?

I agree with Pelosi (ALL of her points), but no one's saying that those crying sexism are the "worst people in the world." Can we please focus on what's happening right now? This topic has been examined quite thoroughly, and I think any of us with a heart agree that Hillary was subjected to a lot of sexism.

Pelosi:

“My impression is, yes, there was sexism. My knowledge is, yes, there is sexism because there has been,” Mrs. Pelosi said with a laugh. “I myself find that I get a tremendous upside being a woman, and I don’t spend a lot of time worrying about sexist remarks that people make.”

On the "FU" group you're starting...I wish you were kidding, but I know you're not. Let it go.

First, if you think Obama is only "marginally" better than McCain (especially on gender issues), you need your head examined. Secondly, enough fucking Oppression Olympics. Who cares if she got more sexism than he got racism? Fact is, he won, and if you really think that he won because voters hate women, then you're just being simple. There were many other factors (all of which you consistently ignore) and you know it. The fact that your candidate ran a crappy campaign until the last few weeks, had missteps ranging from money issues to message problems throughout and did her damnedest to destroy a fellow Democrat using Republican talking points had nothing to do with it, right? Please. (And I say that as someone who has voted for Hillary for Senate in NY State.)

Talk about "fake ass" - I always knew your support for Obama was just that, and that you were still mad bitter about the fact that Hillary lost. I think the response you put up to quasar said it all. You really think that helps?

I'm going to be the last person that tries to shut you up. But if you really, honestly think that Obama's nomination is an affront to all women and a betrayal of the Democratic Party's core principles...wow. Suffice to say, I disagree and think you need to relax. Take a cue from your candidate and unite for the greater good.

Nancy Pelosi the worst person in the world...

Yeah, she really makes Mugabe and his goons look good, doesn't she? And watching her on tv a little while ago made me think of applying for a visa for Somalia.

I think you missed the sarcasm...

I'm in, but I was in before there was even a group. Fuck unity.

You seem to have a thing for lecturing me. Why don't you lecture the assholes on your side who are supporting Obama that continue to be so dimisive and negative towards Hillary for no reason? That continue to trash her and her supporters for no purpose whatsoever except to seed division and then are shocked when Hillary supporters get pissed. Oh I guess the unity theme is on the Hillary side while the Obama folks get to be obnoxious assholes. I don't think so.

If you want to classify yourself in the crowd I am saying FU to "fake ass democrats who have lost the basic core values of what our party used to stand for including respect for all including women," please feel free though I didn't put you in that box.

What I do care about is how the top woman in the dmeocratic party nonchalantly dismissed the sexism that Hillary faced and disregards it. Pelosi faced sexism to. Why should she say anything? Take a look at how African American leaders in congress responded when they feld Obama was being attacked on race - veen with minimal justification. they responded in force. Pelosi is pathetic and I lost the last shred of respect for her that was remaining after the FISA debacle last week. She is a disgrace.

You guys won. But what did you win? A candidate that gives a neocon-lite talk to AIPAC the day after the nomination. A candidate that turns his back on his pledge for public campaign financing so he can spend a half billion dollars in two months broadcasting everywhere? A candidate that faced with a FISA compromise vote will turn his back on his pledge to vote no on a bill with immunity for telecoms. This is the change you've been waiting for? You got had. Don't be mad at me. Blame your candidate.

Is he better than McCain and how much? I have no effing idea because I don't know who he is and neither do you. He says one thing to move on in the primary and another thing once he's got the general election sewn up. And you said Hillary's gas tax proposal was a pander?

So the moral of the story is I am still plenty pissed at the democratic party and Obama but I have no choice but to support him as the candidate because he's NOT MCCAIN. But what I won't do anymore is allow the asshole Obama supporters to continue to attack Hillary as ungenuine or divisive or do anything to win or dismiss her because Obama is even worse. Hillary was who she was. Obama is what you want him to be at that particular moment until your support means less than the moderates and then he'll shove you under the bus and pander for whatever gets him more votes. The audacity of hope in action. Congratulations!

Yeah I'm of Somali descent and my peoples don't want you there. VISA DENIED.

31?? Damn, girl... you're gorgeous!! I had you pegged at roughly 10 years younger than that.

Please accept my apologies for such an inappropriate remark; simply astounded is all.

Sarcasm? What sarcasm?

I made a comment like this before regarding one of your HRC-sexist blogs.

Hillary Rodham Clinton definitely was treated in a sexist manner.

Had she NOT been a female, she would never have been considered a qualified candidate for US Senator, let alone President of the United States.

He sole qualification was her marriage to Bill Clinton, period. She was a celebrity thereby.

Had she not done so--married Bill-- and embarked on a career herself, she certainly may have achieved, in her own right, as much as Bill did. But she choose to sublimate her own career to his; she choose to pour her considerable abilities into helping her husband reach the pinnacle of political success.

But that's all she did. She was a high-powered, superbly educated, brilliant, super-housefrau, riding on her husband's coattails, while whispering guidance in his ear.

Maybe women of her era had no other choice, but she was given every benefit of the doubt by the voters of NY, and by millions of voters in the primary. Benefits that no male in the world would ever have enjoyed. And she lost.

She tried to usher in the Eva Peron era in American politics and almost pulled it off. But just as her candidacy marked the first serious female run for the Presidency, so too will it mark the last female candidate who has to anchor her campaign to the starlight radiating from her man.

The next woman--barring Michelle Obama running in 8 years--will be a free floating, independent entity in and of herself.

I trust you don't really think Pelosi's the worst person in the world. If you do, then I missed it.

Well I obviously did because I'm not even sure whose you're referring to. Dijamo's or yours? (I was responding to her post, not your comment.)

I'm just so sick of all this bleating about sexism. I didn't hear any complaint about it when the women jumped up and down complaining that Obama and Edwards were beating up on a woman. How sexist was *that*?

And I'd be a whole lot more upset about sexism if it had been a woman who'd worked her own way up from the bottom ranks rather than having been given so many damned legs up because of who she'd been married to. Crucially, had that been the case, she may well have had a damned more insight into how to run her own campaign so that she would have been able to win based on her own merits rather than concluding that she had to resort to `kitchen sink`.

I'd have been really, deeply upset about it had it been applied to a woman of real integrity who hadn't run the most disgraceful campaign I could imagine giving the Republicans so much damned ammunition to use against the nominee of her own party: (something which her opponent didn't do). Not only that, but by extending the campaign well beyond the point of statistical improbability most of all she gave them fantastic insights into what did and didn't work so that they wouldn't have to go through a period of trial and error which would have put them further behind the eight ball.

And for good measure, the fundamental reason I'd like to see a woman Democratic president is that one has the maybe idealised, romantic sense that just maybe she'd be governed by some really progressive attitudes to small things like war and peace, the power of diplomacy, rather than her standard operating manual of triangulation.

Well since we're recycling:

Yes, Hillary had the advantage of being Bill Clitnon's wife when she ran for Senate and President. She had a hand in the formation of policy in her husband's White House (as he had told voters would happen) and performed substantive policy work outside of the traditional first lady duties. If Laura Bush or Barbara Bush ran for president no one would take them seriously because on their own they have no qualficiations in the politics or policy realm.

I wouldn't call that sexism - I'd call her advantage neoptism or family connections. FYI - this has been going on for ages. My particular favorite example is Teddy Kennedy. And if you want to talk about nepotism, let's look at Ted Kennedy: In 1960, John Kennedy was elected President of the United States and vacated his Massachusetts Senate seat. Ted would not be eligible to fill his brother's vacant Senate seat until February 22, 1962, when he would turn thirty. Therefore the President-elect asked Massachusetts Governor Foster Furcolo to name a Kennedy family friend Benjamin A. Smith II to fill out John's term (under the authority of the 17th Amendment to the Constitution, and state law). This kept the seat open for Ted. In 1962, Kennedy was elected to the Senate from Massachusetts in a special election. He was elected to a full six-year term in 1964 and was reelected in 1970, 1976, 1982, 1988, 1994, 2000 and 2006.

When Teddy was "elected" to the Senate, he came straight out of law school with no qualifications other than being JFK's little brother. I am sure that you are outraged by this and this causes you to consider Teddy completely unworthy and unqualified to be a senator or a Presidential candidate.

If I had to compare Hillary to anyone, it would probably be Bill Bradley who was also a brilliant man famous for playing basketball. Elected to Senate because of high name recognition, but he had true intellectual heft and policy wonkishness. While his fame may have been a factor, he was no less deserving in his own right of the Senate seat.

Same with Hillary - she may be well known, but she's qualified in her own right and to dismiss her as having this opportnity jest because she's a woman or just beccause she's Bill Clinton's wife is insulting. In fact being Bill's wife probably made things harder for her in the long haul anyway.

Posted by dijamo
June 15, 2008 11:28 AM | Reply | Permalink

Hear, hear. Fuck it, I am going to run in four or eight years after Obama wins, as an Independent, not because I'm married to or close to or happen to know anyone in politics, but because I'm a woman and I know what it's like to love children and mothers and I didn't vote to authorize the war in Iraq, nor did I vote for Kyl-Lieberman.

Do I have your vote, dijamo?

Concern trolls unite!

Are you the same crowd that was claiming Bush and Gore were "all the same" in 2000? That really worked out. Let's just hope that type of pissy self-centered cynicism doesn't get any more people killed.

mmmmm mmmmm...Dijamo! Girrrrlllll, you serve up some good troll sandwiches.

You're unreal.

Hell no - you are a recovering republican. Do you have a plan on universal healthcare? Do you have a plan for foreclosure crisis. Have you sepnt your life workign as a lawyer advocate for women and children? Have you been integrally involved in reforming a statewide educational system? Have you been a force in the Senate for the peopel from NYS to make sure we get our fair share of tax dollars back and fight for homeland security funding? Have you been a part of pushing for the FMLA rights? Have you worked on behalf of veterans. If you ahven't then please be quiet. Hillary even with her flaws has made a million times more difference in this world than you and Obama has accomplished far less than she has on her own merits.

And FYI - Obama now supports Kyl Lieberman amendment even though he punked out and didn't show up for the vote. And now turning his back on his FISA pledge to not vote for telecom immunity. Do you really believe he qould have had the guts in the Senate to vote against the authorization for military force in Iraq? He doesn't even have the balls right now to keep his word on telecom immunity. All talk - no action.

Quasar seriously FU. Who's the freaking troll? The person who actually has substance to her criticism or the pathetic thing that waltzes in with the oh so witty "Hillary who?" get some new material.

If you want to continue to belittle and deman Hillary, then I will continue to criticize Obama. Unity is not a one way street.

Perfect troll like response. You do this troll thing so well.

"FU too!" ;-)

You lost me a few months ago when you tried to recycle yourself as Minamo.

Oh I see. You get to choose which women are full of integrity and you like and defend those women from sexist attacks. Well guess what - the republicans don't like Michelle Obama and they don't thing she has integrity. So I am assuming you will not have any criticism of them when they lay into her with sexist attacks.

Whne did the democratic party get taken over by these apologists - oh sexist attacks are okay against Hillary because I don't like her or lets just ignore them or even worse participate in them. If someone calls Condoleeza Rice a mammy or a bitch, I speak up because it's wrong whether you despise the person or not. Don't let anybody call Michelle Obama a bitch, but if it's Hillary it's just fine.

You people lack principles and it is pathetic that you consider yourselves democrats. And then you wonder why Hillary supporters are still pissed. Because you don't respect Hillary and you certainly don't respect her supporters.

Dumbass minamo is my sister who rarely shows up here. You lost me because you never ever have anything intelligent to say.

To clairfy - you are the dumbass. Minamo is not the dumbass. If that wasn't clear enough for you.

And if I wanted to have an alternate identity why would I pick minamo as a name. I am not as dumb as you are idiot. I'd got a little more creativity than that.

Oh and worst of all you fell for Obama. That shows a serious lack of judgement right there. You my friend are unelectable as President.

No you had it right the first time because I remember Minamo got slammed pretty good.

Do you have a plan on universal healthcare? Do you have a plan for foreclosure crisis. Have you sepnt your life workign as a lawyer advocate for women and children? Have you been integrally involved in reforming a statewide educational system? Have you been a force in the Senate for the peopel from NYS to make sure we get our fair share of tax dollars back and fight for homeland security funding? Have you been a part of pushing for the FMLA rights? Have you worked on behalf of veterans. If you ahven't then please be quiet. Hillary even with her flaws has made a million times more difference in this world than you and Obama has accomplished far less than she has on her own merits.

Number one, you seem angry because your normally well-written (and spell-checked) posting abilities bit the dust with this one.

Number two, you are narrowing this whole thing down to 1) NYC and 2) women and families.

Number three, you are (in your own words) trying to claim that Obama has as much inexperience in government as I have.

What, dijamo, you're suddenly drinking while posting? Shame on yuz. Go to sleep, sweetie. Stop hitting the sauce.


And so are you, my friend.

Neener, neener, neener.

I don't know why ANYBODY would pick Dijamo for a name.

Then double up with Minamo?

dj,

Fair enough, let's call it nepotism.

One of the reasons I could not support an HRC candidacy was the thought of 28 years of Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton rule.

I think that would have made a mockery of our "democratic" system of government.

We may as well be ruled by kings, sheiks, amirs, princes and so on.

Along with the Kennedy's and Bushes, Gore is part of the nepotism club. You think he would have been a Senator if not for his father being one?

The Eva Peron comment was mainly said in jest, but there's some truth in it too.

Bill Bradley ( and Arnold S. and maybe Reagan) certainly had their celebrity to thank for much of their political success, but they achieved their own, HRC stardom came from the light emanating from Bill.

Finally, although I may disagree with him on most (domestic) issues, I think Obama, for many disparate reasons, was born to be Prez at this point in the history of America.

[You'll like this, dj: Nietzsche described the first few bars of Beethoven's 5th Symphony as, "Destiny knocking on the door." That's what Barack's candidacy is in my soulful, blue-green eyes.]

FB

You seem to have a thing for lecturing me.

Hardly. I thought your opinions were foolhardy, and I said as much. How is that lecturing?

Why don't you lecture the assholes on your side who are supporting Obama that continue to be so dimisive and negative towards Hillary for no reason?

I don't know about "dismissive" (right? or "divisive"?), but there's plenty of reason to be negative towards Hillary. She's provided all of that herself, and they have nothing at all to do with her gender. I won't recount it here, because we've been going through it for the last six months. You know damned well what she's done.

Look, if someone on the team I support is acting like a jerk, I may still support my team - but I'm not blind to the fact that that guy or gal is a jerk! (See, Belle, Albert.)

That continue to trash her and her supporters for no purpose whatsoever except to seed division and then are shocked when Hillary supporters get pissed.

What blog are you reading? Seriously, I see no one bringing up Hillary's name but you, and perhaps a few other Hillary holdouts. Maybe I'm not combing this site looking for the latest in Hillary slights, but I certainly read my share of posts. Point me in the right direction; I'm more than willing to concede the point.

Oh I guess the unity theme is on the Hillary side while the Obama folks get to be obnoxious assholes. I don't think so.

Let me break the news: he's the nominee. You thought we'd all unite around her?

And as for branding us as "obnoxious assholes" - glass houses. Slow your roll, and start naming people. Surely you know their aliases, seeing as they piss you off this much.

If you want to classify yourself in the crowd I am saying FU to "fake ass democrats who have lost the basic core values of what our party used to stand for including respect for all including women," please feel free though I didn't put you in that box.

Thanks for not pigeonholing me that time. I would love to join a group that is committed to adhering to Democratic values and speaking truth to power. But your idea sucks. I'm sorry, it does. You really think something like that would be anything but destructive at this stage of the game?

What I do care about is how the top woman in the dmeocratic party nonchalantly dismissed the sexism that Hillary faced and disregards it. Pelosi faced sexism to. Why should she say anything?

Wow, you were serious.

Maybe Pelosi's a lot less interested in being a victim than you are. Hey, I say the same thing about Sharpton, et. al. and racism as far as I'm concerned. Self-victimization and brooding over perceived slights gets us nowhere. I believe in accountability, and so does Pelosi - she didn't have to say anything. But what Pelosi drove home is that, yes - sexism is out there. She experiences it, too. But you never hear her or any of her supporters holler (in the fashion you're doing) that their candidate was gravely disadvantaged by it! That's my problem with your position.

Take a look at how African American leaders in congress responded when they feld Obama was being attacked on race - veen with minimal justification. they responded in force.

To compare the positions of acknowledged Obama supporters defending him during the primary to a powerful figure like Pelosi that didn't endorse acknowledging the sexism Hillary supporters (and some of the rest of us) complain about...that's beyond simplistic. They're not even the same situation, politically speaking. And that's the sphere they're operating within. Don't expect anyone within that arena to say anything revolutionary.

Pelosi is pathetic and I lost the last shred of respect for her that was remaining after the FISA debacle last week. She is a disgrace.

FISA's a different issue. I agree with you somewhat, though I'm not as alarmist as most are here on TPM because I realize that this ain't over.

You guys won. But what did you win? A candidate that gives a neocon-lite talk to AIPAC the day after the nomination.

Whatever. With all the shit you spewed at him during the primary and today, you're one to talk about "neocon-lite".

A candidate that turns his back on his pledge for public campaign financing so he can spend a half billion dollars in two months broadcasting everywhere?

Like that's a bad thing?

If you don't agree with his reasons for foregoing the financing, fine. But we saw what happened to Kerry when he did the same thing, thinking everything would be cool. I'm glad Obama's not that naive.

A candidate that faced with a FISA compromise vote will turn his back on his pledge to vote no on a bill with immunity for telecoms.

Sheesh. The man said he's going to work to get the immunity out of the bill! There's a reason two guys who've endorsed him, including one of his biggest supporters in the Senate, are planning to filibuster this thing. You think that's happening without Obama's input?

Do you just read whatever parts of the news that will get you into a (self-)righteous anger, and ignore the rest? I've heard of another group of folks that loves to do that.

This is the change you've been waiting for? You got had.

Wow. That's not self-righteous at all! "You didn't vote for the candidate I liked, so you're fools"? I'm a responsible voter, and I've thoroughly researched the platforms of every single candidate in this race, from Obama to Clinton to McCain to Giuliani to Huckabee to Paul to Kucinich. I did so so that I might make an informed decision, and I chose Obama. If that makes me a fool in your eyes, I guess I'll have to live with that.

Don't be mad at me. Blame your candidate.

Don't be mad at me. Blame your candidate.

Is he better than McCain and how much? I have no effing idea because I don't know who he is and neither do you.

That's so weak. You either are being lazy or dismissive yourself. You'll notice that they differ on virtually every issue! Goodness. Are you even paying attention?

He says one thing to move on in the primary and another thing once he's got the general election sewn up. And you said Hillary's gas tax proposal was a pander?

Huh? It was a pander - about the grossest one I've seen since the "No new taxes" speech by Bush's daddy. How is he differing in his positions? (The ones that matter and could make a difference in our lives, I mean.)

So the moral of the story is I am still plenty pissed at the democratic party and Obama...

Funny that none of that anger is reserved for the candidate you supported. I'm an avid sports fan, and damn if I wasn't pissed that my Indians only scored two stinkin' runs against one of the worst teams in baseball (at home!) tonight. I don't blame the SF Giants. I don't blame the umpires and I sure as hell don't blame the fans or the weather (it was a perfect night in Cleveland, for once). I blame my team for not executing.

When your candidate pisses away a HUGE lead in the polls to start with, makes odd and offensive statements, disregards the caucus states because "they don't matter" (and loses 12 straight contests, incl. VT, in the process), her fundraising is dwarfed and her advisers give her bad advice, how is that Obama's fault, exactly? Or the Democratic Party? She's advocating her legitimacy in every way but that which the Party established - delegates - and yet, it's the Party's fault? She does everything in her power to undermine Obama's candidacy, going negative at every turn, and it's his fault when it doesn't work?

Get over yourself.

but I have no choice but to support him as the candidate because he's NOT MCCAIN.

I'm sorry it's so painful for you. I mean that seriously. You should never dread your vote.

But what I won't do anymore is allow the asshole Obama supporters to continue to attack Hillary as ungenuine or divisive or do anything to win or dismiss her because Obama is even worse.

How is Obama worse? Can you offer any specific examples, because all I hear from you is bluster about how fucking horrible Obama is, and was to Hillary in the primary. (Guess that's why she gave one of her best speeches ever in endorsing him, eh? Because he sucks.)

Hillary was who she was.

So that's an excuse for the way she conducted herself, and her campaign? Because we all knew what we were getting?

Or did you simply mean that she was consistent, because that's a load, too. The changes in her positions from Iraq to immigration were significant.

Obama is what you want him to be at that particular moment until your support means less than the moderates and then he'll shove you under the bus and pander for whatever gets him more votes. The audacity of hope in action. Congratulations!

And I guess all us libs were gunning for the war when Hillary voted to give this President a blank check to go to war? Huh? I don't hear word one from you about that. And when most Dems (including her) were joining the chickenhawk GOP in sending young men and women to DIE FOR FUCKING OIL, Obama was against it.

No candidate on this earth is going to avoid disappointing even his or her most loyal supporters at some point. It is important for us to keep our heads and realize what the greater good is. It seems that you've done that to an extent, but goodness...do you really think saying things like "Fuck unity" are helpful? And please, save any nonsense about your needing to vent after a deep disappointment; keep a diary or talk to a friend or family member. TPM is a place of public discourse, and you influence more people than you know. To paraphrase Dr. King, there's ways for people to continue to disagree without being vitriolically disagreeable. I understand how angry you are, but for goodness' sakes, there are more important things going on here than what you or I feel.

Eyes on the prize, folks.

Quasar, shut the fuck up.

One more thing: Nancy Pelosi may not always be as effectual as we Dems would like her to be, but she got all the way up to the post she sits in, which is two people away from President.

AND, she's a woman and apparently had no problem with any glass ceiling, AND she wasn't married to a former President.

TPM - preview feature. Please.

After praying on this, I remembered Galatians 5:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulnees, gentleness and self-control. Against, such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I meant no disrespect, sister. We disagree, but as I said, I'd hope we can do so in the future without vitriol.

Wait a minute...you still mad?

Punk?

Yeah she had no political connections except her dad as congressman & mayor. TOTALLY got there on her own.

DijaMo is a hybrid of my name. MinaMo was a hybrid of her name before she got married but she's still a Mo. And you are an ass.

To be fair, how did being the daughter of Baltimore's mayor help her win a special election to get her House seat? And being the daughter of a mayor is a heck of a lot different than being the First Lady for eight years, no?

I wish I'd never read, or jumped into, this post. I'm tired of the vitriol and I liked it better when we were all starting to get along.

I liked it better when I didn't know what a fooking PUMA is.

I'm going back to my DVD of The Clash and my iPod and I'm taking a break from this place.

I mean, if the Left can't get a grip with it's own fist, how in the hell can it fight the vice grip holding the Right's down?

You know?

Nope, never was. I don't break a sweat telling a guy like you to shut the fuck up. Considering your behavior in this thread and mine, I'd say your deeming dijamo a troll is ironic. To be kind.

You're telling him too much information (combined with your photo). Beware of the real nuts on the Internet.

Couldn't agree more. As much as I enjoy debate, I wish I'd made better use of my time, and that we all could get past this.

"Oh I see. You get to choose which women are full of integrity and you like and defend those women from sexist attacks..."

No, not at all. I guess the truth is that I didn't much like Clinton or have much respect for her before her campaign really resorted to the kitchen sink (though I didn't have the level of loathing & contempt I have since then) and the moment everyone came out bleating about Obama and Edwards `beating up on her` I thought (and still think) that was utterly pathetic and because of it, the issue of sexism no longer counted for me.

"Well guess what - the republicans don't like Michelle Obama and they don't thing she has integrity. So I am assuming you will not have any criticism of them when they lay into her with sexist attacks."

Sure I will - until and unless she/the campaign started to use false sexist arguments themselves. Then again I would lose interest in it as an issue.

"Whne did the democratic party get taken over by these apologists - oh sexist attacks are okay against Hillary because I don't like her or lets just ignore them or even worse participate in them. If someone calls Condoleeza Rice a mammy or a bitch, I speak up because it's wrong whether you despise the person or not. Don't let anybody call Michelle Obama a bitch, but if it's Hillary it's just fine."

Again, I can only speak for me, but it was the Clinton camp that started bleating utterly pathetically about sexism in a way that was so damned hypocritical and that is why I couldn't care less about any genuine sexism that they did come up against. And I believe their own conduct was so much worse in so many other ways that I don't for one moment apologise for not caring about any instances of unfairness they themselves came up against.

"You people lack principles and it is pathetic that you consider yourselves democrats. And then you wonder why Hillary supporters are still pissed. Because you don't respect Hillary and you certainly don't respect her supporters."

Well what I don't respect is people not understanding that it's something that's earned.
Just as contempt is.

I still don't know what PUMA is (other than a mountain lion). I refuse to look it up on principle. Second on the vitriol. Can't we fight nicely?

This is a stupid argument. Both Clinton and Pelosi benefited by their political connections. Who cares who benefited more?

Apparently not. I take some of the blame here - as you see above, I let myself get sucked into the quicksand...

And you're a PUMA.

I'm not PUMA - I'm a NYer who doesn't have to support some candidate just because 51% of my party did. I am entitled to disengage from a political process where my views are not respected. And I have no freaking obligation to continue to defend Obama or to engage in the political process.

dijamo, you may disagree with Pelosi, but "worst person in the world" in this case is even greater hyperbole than than usual. What exactly is her Pelosi moral flaw? You provide no argument or analysis, just a link.

I've argued with people who claim that there was no discrimination against Clinton and defended you when people could not seem to wrap their minds around the possibility that Clinton could have been the victim of sexism without that being the sole factor in her loss.

But similarly, it's possible for Clinton to have benefited from her gender even as she suffered from it. She surely was more popular among female voters because she's a woman (just as Obama was more popular among black voters because he's black).

My guess is that Clinton lost more than she gained as a result of her gender, but that's pure speculation which is impossible for anyone to measure. Pelosi apparently feels the upside and downside balance out, and since neither you nor I can disprove that, it's not an unreasonable position for her to take and hardly makes her the worst person in the world.

Perhaps you have some other reason why Pelosi is the worst person in the world. If so, please help out your original post by sharing.

To start.

I'm female.

What I did in your thread was to ask the question if Fareed Zakaria was a moderate conservative.

I stated that he impressions that he's "the smartest person in the room". He opinions after it's safe to do so from people that are pioneer of thought and takes it as his "analysis". And because of his arrogance I thought he was a numptie.

But this was after your long post on the virtues of his thought without you really knowing anything about Fareed but maybe a few TV appearances and not the think tank groups I challenged you on.

Since you were wrong. Is it my problem that you feel as though you have to wear your wedgie today?

You shouldn't. Because I wouldn't have felt that you still feel like your fake business meant that much to you.

Somebody lied to you. You're not that special. And I didn't feel as though your post could not be critiqued. It was bad.

Like I said..."PUMA".

I'll go one step further. I name you provocateur. I agree with dijamo that your original post was a dismissive lecture, which is not to say that she didn't escalate the vitriol. To avoid provocation, try to avoid telling people to have their head examined, calling their ideas foolhardy, implying that that their posts are ludicrous, etc.

If a post doesn't justify a serious response, then a) ignore it, or b) ridicule it. Engaging seriously with condescension is the thing that provokes these fights. Generally though, while I often disagree with dijamo, I think her non-vitriolic posts merit a respectful response.

Hillary won 51% of the female vote vs. 45% for Obama. Obama won 52% of men to 42% of women so that stunning gender gap - non-existent. Obama won 82% of black voters vs 16% for Hillary. Now THAT is an advantage. So the whole premise that Pelosi made and you are arguing is BS on the face of it. Hillary did not benefit from sexism.

Women who supported Hillary may be her most stalwart supporters and the most angry at the sexism which was ignored by the democratic party and much of the activist progressive community was silent about or actively participated in (particularly in the blogosphere). How many Hillary supporters did you see calling Obama the n word vs. Obama supporters calling Hillary a bitch, shrillary, etc etc etc. It is a disgrace that this is the democratic party and we had people acting worse than right wing republicans.

Pelosi is pathetic. She was silent to the sexism against Hillary because oh she faced it too? That's lovely. So black politicians don't speak up in the face of racism against other black politicans? They just ignore it? Pelosi and the democratic leadership chose to remain silent. I have no respect for her or them. They don't deserve Hillary's support, but she's giving it to them anyway. She deserves more credit than she's been given and I resent that she is still being attacked by Obama supporters for what purpose???

If that's your appeal to Clinton voters, get ready for McCain.

You need to look up the acronym PUMA, Genghis.

Talking party unity to a troll isn't worthwhile.

dijamo - McCain camp called. You have to go pick up your paycheck this week - apparently he's going to have to start paying for his planes and they have to cut expenses - no checks will be mailed.

I agree with you - that's what I meant by the quicksand metaphor. Sometimes my lesser natures get the best of me. That's why I prayed on it, and shared the verse I did, hoping to calm some of the tensions I'd raised. I appreciate your perspective - you offer good advice.

dijamo - I understand your anger and frustration because I too found Pelosi's remarks somewhat 'dismissive'.
But, I don't believe that Pelosi speaks for all members of the DNC (much less all the women) Those were her words and her expressions.
Not all Obama supporters are attacking HRC - Just as not all HRC supporters believe in PUMA.
I personally am upset that in the gibber today (media, blogs, etc.) about HRC's future that I didn't hear or read one person talk about a cabinet position. As I've stated before I believe she should be seated in cabinet placement to direct implementing a healthcare system that would benefit us all. I can think of no other who has the passion, skill and knowledge to achieve this much needed goal.



Okay, against my better judgment, I came back into this thread.

dijamo, I just have this to say: There were several very good and qualified Democratic presidential candidates running all of last year. Edwards, Biden, Richardson, Dodd, Kucinich, Clinton, Obama, Gravel too.

The people of the USA narrowed it down to two. Clinton and Obama. The people of the USA then narrowed it down to one.

Whether Clinton was a man or a woman, after a while, made no difference. The people of the USA narrowed their vote down to the candidate that they felt would make the most difference this year.

I don't know how else to put it, where it will help disgruntled women make sense of it. I just know that two candidates, narrowed down into a small field, from a big field, came down to be the last two standing.

And one won. And won didn't.

If you want me to applaud Hillary Clinton for being one of those last two standing: I do. I do.

She beat all those other men.

But Senator Barack Obama beat her, at the end, because I guess most people in America wanted something new.

It wasn't sexism. It wasn't anything more than the people's choice, over who is new and who is not, and who might have a better chance of beating the Republicans this year.

So much for me leaving....heh.

Dammit, a typo:

And one won. And won didn't.

I meant: And one didn't.

Sorry.

You know why Dijamo won't answer?

Because Dijamo is a troll.

Or she went to bed. Give it a rest already. You're not helping.

And to you Lis - I give thee the blessed olive branch award. Sometimes you just amaze me - thanks. Don't stop.

You like being wrong don't you?

O...I get it.

You really DON'T like being wrong again.

You're embarrassed.

Po' Scientific.

He puff up and go..."pffft".

I don't know that my advice is worth shit, but a the ability to question oneself is priceless, and I respect you for it. Sorry that I misunderstood what you meant about the quicksand.

I'll never let you rest from this.

Wright, Fareed and now troll smoochies?

Never.

Agreed from here, too. I have actually enjoyed a lot of dijamo's posts lately. I recommended and even commented on some of them, in good faith and in agreement. On this post, however, I don't agree.

And therefore, I totally regret saying, "Neener, neener, neener". It was uncalled for, it was ugly, and it was almost childish.

;-)

So now you're stalking me? Isn't that the very definition of a troll?

Again...not helping. You and I actually agree to an extent in this thread, but I told you to shut the fuck up because you were completely out of line. It was out of line for me to use that language, but the sentiment remains. Give it a rest. It's obvious that you're not here to do anything but be an irritant and hijack threads. Hope that's fun for you.

After much thought and consideration....I won't.

I won't stop.

Thanks, Aunt Sam.

Thanks, America, for giving me my rights. They might be slowly, oh so slowly disappearing, but the fact that we can all sit here on this one website -- out of so, so, SO many in the world -- and agree to disagree (without a moderator, for the most part), is a right that I will fight my damndest to uphold.

What about the people in Africa, tonight, who have lost their right to vote for an opposition party????

Jesus, people. Get over the stupid small stuff, before it's US who lose.

And not just US, in the grand old USA, but everybody else. Are you paying attention to THEM?

(jumps off of soap box)

I'm just sayin'. Freedom is being fought for, everywhere. Fight the GOOD fight. Fight for RIGHTS. Eh?

You're flailing.

Again.

Though there are similarities, race does not equal gender, and I never suggested that it did nor engaged in the game of who gained/lost more from their gender/race. I was simply noting that Obama both gained and lost from his race, as Clinton both gained and lost from her gender.

Pelosi apparently does not believe that sexism seriously impacts her own success, and she projects that on Clinton. She may be wrong about her own case and Clinton's, but being wrong does not make her pathetic. Moreover, Pelosi is the most powerful woman in the country and arguably the highest ranking woman in the history of the U.S. I would say that she is in a far better position to judge the impact of sexism in politics than you or I. That doesn't mean that she's right, but it should give you some pause before you dismiss her perspective as "pathetic".

Citing a quote and shouting angrily about how obviously absurd or pathetic it is does not constitute an argument. If you want to convince people like me who are at least open to the possibility that Pelosi is too dismissive, you'll need to put together a more cogent argument. If you just want to holler your frustration into the blogosphere, then keep on yelling.

Coming from you, that's a compliment. Have fun with the last word, guy.

As I just said, quasar....shouldn't we all be fighting together? For freedom?

The more we fight against ourselves, the more we will fail and the closer we will get to losing our right to fight at all.

Let's all go to bed on a good note. Eh?

Tell you what.

You got a lot of wedgie picking to do again.

Get back to me later because I really don't want to smell your finger.

Nope.

If Scientific was a stand up guy it'd be different.

But he's always on the wrong side of an issue. And he doesn't step out and defend at the appropriate time. Only for his self-image. At lot of verbosity about HIS idea and people need to get in line with HIS thinking.

Scientific has used profanity since I got here. Now he has to pray for HIS peace of mind. Fine.

Then he goes right back into his condensing nature.

He has never been friendly to me nor stuck for the the most pressing issue first hand. He comes out after the storm.

He's stuck up.

Quasar, what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

It's unfortunate that too many who truly support Obama don't practice the 'positive' message. I know I don't always but I'm trying to do better - as I've posted before I'm trying to Change Negative Reaction to Positive Action.
You do this more than most. And Scientific really tries to take positive out of negative too.
This is a good thing.

G'night lisb!!!!!!! You're too cool for this thread.

G'night quasar!!!!!!! You're too cranky today.

Here I'm in the zone with a PUMA and he shows up cussing me. Fuck that.

And he can stay away again like everytime he gets stomped.

Okay, quasar. Whatever. I know scientific to have many recommended and intelligent posts that a great number of readers agree on. But whatever. If YOU don't like scientific, then I promise you I will go to bed wondering if everything I've learned so far about scientific could possibly be wrong. And I'll go to bed wondering if perhaps I put my faith in the wrong place, and the wrong person.

But I'm damn sure that tomorrow morning, I'll wake up knowing otherwise, and I will wake up tomorrow morning knowing that the Democratic party and the Democratic nominee is waiting for my support, my money, my enthusiasm, and my voice. And I will wake up willing to give it. As will scientific.

So let's all go to bed happy, knowing that tomorrow will bring new battles, and let's go to bed happy knowing that we are prepared for them.

Okay? Good. Good night, lovey.

Nice vase, btw. Where did you get those flowers?

And you, Genghis, are too cool for that shirt.

(smooch)

And you're too nerdy!!!! G'Night!!!!!

Just helping Scientific navigate his wedgie.

It's got GPS.

I can Google Earth it.

Respectfully, are you bipolar? This is a very demented post.

There has been no vote of any kind on FISA. Yes, Sen. Obama has made certain comments with regard to that particular bill. Most importantly, in those comments he said that he would fight to kill immunity for the telecoms. And I readily admit that he did indicate that, even if immunity survived, he would support the bill.

Now, isn't immunity for the telecoms the real crux of everyone's disillusionment? And, if that's the case, why can't we wait before we begin all the "Fuck Yous" (or, as you so ladylike put them "FUs"?)

As a Hillary supporter, I'm sure you have no tendency to respect the cunning of Sen. Obama. As an Obama supporter, I'll tell you straight up that he knows his game and his goals. His game is politics and his goals include returning power to the people.

At the end of the day, can't you, Billy and all the other Hillaryites on the board wait until at least one sprig of FISA hay is in the barn before you go all projectionist on an Obama presidency.

(He is gonna win, ya know. Check out the most recent LA Times poll!)

From Ferdinand.

So, um....does that mean you're not gonna tell me where you got those flowers?

Ferdinand the Bull? He was a very lovely bull, was he not? He was able to stop fighting, and smell the flowers. Appreciate the flowers. To the point where he got laughed at, by all the other bulls.

I love Ferdinand the Bull. It's a nice bedtime story, too, besides being meaningful, and all.

Sweet dreams, luv.

There has been no vote of any kind on FISA.

I'm talking about in the SENATE, of course.

Ferdinand was never lonely. He immersed himself in the sensual.

He was laughed at because of this.

But he fought when proof was needed. When necessary. And was as triumphant as any. More so

But...

his desire was not like any other. It was special only to him. So what? He accepted it and stayed true to himself.

As we all do.

Trolls don't.

What's a "numptie?"

Haha!

A numptie is a silly person.

What's the etymology?

Scottish.

Same as Brits saying "Silly Moo". Kinda.

Dijamo wrote: "Yes we'll vote for Obama over McCain, but to hell with all these fake ass democrats who have lost the basic core values of what our party used to stand for including respect for all including women."

What will you do if Hillary votes yes? Since this vote, to you, cancels out everything Obama has ever done that can be considered good, and renders him a sell-out BY DEFINITION, and makes him simply the less heinous of a heinous choice, and not a true Democrat, I ask you: Will you apply the same standard when/if Hillary votes yes?

Or does she get separate rules? Just want to know in advance.

Hmmnn, Hillary's health care plan was not universal. Universal healthcare implies tax payer funded, single payer health care. Hillary knows that, but she insisted on using the word "universal" to imply her plan contained something it didn't.

Forcing people to buy insurance is not "universal health care." Just like forcing people to buy car insurance, under threat of heavy fines and loss of license, is not universal accident protection.

Probably derivative, and definitely even more colloquial...

In some parts of Australia a "numptie" is an aboriginal woman (by implication dull-witted) who is an easy lay.

Or when Americans say "wanker" imagining that the Brits mean something similar to what we mean when we call someone a "jerkoff".

I'll second this. Quasar's tendency to drop accusations of "troll" makes me think that she gets discounts for volume.

Pelosi is a feminist. Hillary is a genderist.

And you're a moron.

Thanks. Coming from you, that's high praise indeed.

Speaker Pelosi is a Democrat.

Senator Clinton is a Me-ocrat.

Yeah I'm off my meds. They stopped making the Fleur de Sel Haagen Daaz. And there's also a number of excessively obnoxious Obama folks that have no desire to bring about unity and just want to continue to seed division. Why should I have to the better person and just let that unnessary swipes against Hillary go unanswered? You want people to follow Hillary in the spirit of unity then how about the Obama folks start following their leader in unity. How about an end to ad hominem attacks on Hillary that serve no purpose whatsoever. But rather than address those Obama assholes, it's me who's bipolar.

Unity is not one way. It's harder to bridge gaps when there are people actively trying to divide. And I have the right to revert to stage three and vent when said assholes tick me off.

Aren't you late for your appointment as Manatee chum?

Hillary never pretended to be something that's she's not. Obama's the one appealing to move on.org in the primary and doing an about face now. I expect that Hillary will vote against the act but it's harder to so when it embarrases your lily-livered presidential nominee. If she votes against it - she's embarrassing Obama. If she votes for it, she's just as bad as Obama. Here's a clue. He's the nominee and is repsonsible for his own actions. It's not about Hillary anymore - it's about Obama. Now we get to see who he really is.

Thanks. I almost forgot the deep discounts on cheap insults.

Basically, don't take anything seriously coming from quasar. I know I don't.

Speaker Pelosi is a queen bee protecting her domain at the expense of diminishing other powerful women. Speaker Pelosi is all talk and no action as evidenced by her cave on FISA. Speaker Pelosi should have been ousted by a real democrat like Cindy Sheehan who would have been a real progressive and actively push for action on ending the war funding rather than just caving to the GOP at every opportunity.

What feminist is silent in the face of sexism on other women? She's a petty person who thinks politics is an effing popularity contest and since she doesn't like Hillary she did everything to put her thumbs on the scale for Obama.

Good Lord. You have lost your mind.

I'd heard of the Aussie usage. With Quasar's usage I wondered if the meaning had changed with transportation into American-English (I'm assuming Quasar lives in the USA).

With both definitions, I'm still wondering which one is the accepted version, here in America. One has a racial-sexual overlay and the other is significantly milder. Any views?

D, it's a plant. It has no nervous system nor cognitive ability. No lungs, just photosynthesis. Don't waste your breath, take it's oxygen and ignore. And weeds, kelp and moss are just as useful for that.

Amen. If it were just newcomers, I'd suspect them as RNC scabs, but it's the same-old-same-olds pitching in. Quite annoying for so many reasons.

Clinton made hers with her husband. Pelosi inherited hers.

You don't take your dissertation seriously either.

Lost my mind or found it? I have for quite some time not attacked Obama and even defended him to those poor souls who really thought the were electing THE ONE and are now disillusioned. Yet the Obama side continues to attack Hillary. I am just fed up with the assholes on your side of the aisle who continue to attack attack attack. You say Hillary supporters should follow Hillary's lead in unity. What about Obama's example? You can't play referee for one team and cry foul while ignoring the assholes on your side.

So the rules have changed for me. Ad hominem and hateful attacks on Hillary will be met with me not just with defending her, but my fair and valid criticism of Obama. Maybe one day Obama supporters will learn what real unity means - maybe it will take a slip in the polls before they realize Hillary's supporters matter. Just hope it's not too late when they decide winning is more important than being an obnoxious asshole.

Marginal??? Are you off your rocker?

If Hillary suffered at the hands of sexism, then that's sucks, but it's not my fault as an Obama voter, and it doesn't make Obama a sexist.

And considering how many white people in Appalachia polled saying they'd never vote for a black person, and all the nonsense about Obama being "black enough/not black enough" in the media (should we blame Hillary for that? No), I think it's fair to say that neither candidate had a big demographic advantage.

Hillary was the establishment candidate, who was proclaimed (by the media) as not only a shoe-in, but by far the most qualified and competent, that is, until the voting started. Trotting out this victimhood angle after the fact shows a sheer ignorance of recent history, and is offensive to both women (my wife, anyway) and men who advocate for a strong feminist agenda in national politics.

Des, of course you are right. Moving on and past the weeds.

"Marginal??? Are you off your rocker?"

NOTE: I was trying to reply to a earlier post where dijamo said that Obama would be only a "marginal" improvement over McCain, as if the war in Iraq and abortion rights aren't a, you know, BIG FRICKIN DEAL...

:-P

You go girl! I opposed Hillary on some very specific issues and I also opposed the dynasty, but strange to see some of these Obama folks wanting it all ways. They don't care if Obama abandons important issues because they claim they want unity then they insult the very people they want to support them. Why don't they just be nice to people and stand strong on the issues? I admit I wasn't nice to Hillary but at least I hand a core issue, war, to motivate me.

I have nothing but contempt for Speaker Pelosi's lack of leadership. But she's pointing out a simple reality: sexism is a subject barely worth discussing as it relates to politics. It's a distraction, an excuse, a crutch, a red herring. But it's not a subject a true feminist would even bring up in this regard. Hillary is an opportunist--not a feminist.

I'm in HR where ensuring fair treatment of all employees is one part of my job. If someone makes racially demeaning comments about an employee, they are taken just as seriously as gender demeaning comments about an employee. Doesn't matter if it had no measurable impact on your actual work product. It's called creating an adverse work environment and culture. If management disregards one type of complaint while strictly defending another employee, that's company endorsed bias. There are standard codes of conduct and respect in the workplace. All of our employees are required to uphold that standard and we are all responsible for enforcing that culture by speaking up directly to the offender or to your supervisor or manager when you witness violations.

Apply the same logic to sexism vs. racism in the campaign and how management or the democratic party responded. The Democratic party fell down on the job. If this was a company setting, they'd be liable in civil court for failure to intercede when they knowingly observed an adverse work environment. Hillary's campaign had it's own problems and sexism was not the reason for her loss. But that does not excuse the failure of the party to speak out against discrimination in all forms.

Because she refuses to make excuses for herself based upon her genitalia, you accuse her of failing to stand up for other women. Nancy Pelosi understands what it takes to make it in politics and/or business--namely, doing your work and not blaming your failures on anything other than not doing a good enough job. Being a woman is not a weakness. Pelosi knows that. Apparently you don't.

Come on, can't we all go back to 2000 (well, up until now actually) and read what those brilliant folks on the Right kept telling us over and over? GET OVER IT. UNITE BEHIND DEAR LEADER. ITS OVER. EAT IT. Etc. Seriously, it'd be a lot less work for the Obama-cultists to just find those right wing comments and post them.

A serious question to those writing "troll!" You see any difference between your responses and those from the Bush-cultists over the years? Cause if I had any energy or desire to do so, it'd be funny to find 10 "get over it!" quotes from Obama-cultists and Bush-cultists.

BTW folks, the "debate" about the WAR was long ago. Buck up, GET OVER IT, and support your country! Or do you hate America?

Yeah, stop using the "urban slang" dictionary like Scientific.

No, dijamo, you've lost your mind. You can't fucking make a decision. First you're all party unity and "I'm angry, but I'm working through my anger and I'm a Democrat and I'll support Obama". Now you're back in the loony bin with readytoblowagasket and Billy Fucking Glad. You rely too much on carelessly raising your sails and riding whatever wind happens to be blowing at the time. Trouble is, you can't decide if you want to be actively involved in setting your own course. You're what psychologists would refer to as passive/aggressive. Or perhaps bipolar. This election isn't about Hillary or Obama. It's about YOU. It's about what YOU want. And neither one of them can give you what you want. But make a fucking decision, OK, baby? Grab the halyard and pull it in, or let it loose. Just do something.

So my decision should be to what? Suck up the continued attacks on Hillary form obnoxious Obama supporters (you included) that just continue to deride and demean my candidate while simultaneously bemoaning the fact that some the same time deriding Hillary supporters that are not riding the unity pony? Snark or no snark it is not fucking helpful.

And FYI most elections should be about YOU and what you think is in the best interests of the country - not what some rabbitkitty tells you to do because if you don't your a PUMA or a DINO or a whatever the fuck. I'm not passive-aggressive or bipolar. I am livid that you have the nerve to address me whith your unity bullshit and not look in the mirror at yourself and those seeding dissension on the Obama side. That puts me on the fast track to say if they don't give a shit about real unity and respect, why should I?

You can say that but I don't think anyone would care but maybe "The Girl from the Bronx".

Basically, don't take anything seriously coming from quasar. I know I don't.

I feel it important to ditto that, for the health of this website. I don't want to see it turn into MySpace. Normally I dislike exclusion tactics but this case is an exception, constantly trying to bait others into a teen chat thing and put posters into cliques, reminds me of Heathers. If quasar's preferred M.O. starts leaking into TPMCafe front page threads, you can kiss grown-up contributors goodbye, as they'll be ashamed to be associated with such babble using their real names.

hmmmmm?

O...and maybe "Plee".

jealous?

zzzzzzzz

Moral of the story: because some Obama supporters are slamming Hillary unfairly, you're going to slam Obama unfairly - even though he's the candidate you'll be voting for in the fall.

Makes perfect sense.

Exactly. We barely heard a word from Hillary or her camp with regard to the overt racism being expressed, by voters and by supporters...like Rush Limbaugh.

She laughed off his support when she should've told that fat fuck to go straight to hell and anyone planning to vote for her in "Operation Chaos" needn't waste their time.

We love America enough to pull our men and women in uniform out of an unnecessary war. You think patriotism is towing the Bush company line?

yeah, to much Haagen Daaz and being here has worn your

P udgy
U ndignified
M enopausal
A ss

out.

Dijamo has said plenty of nasty things about Senator Obama, even after he had locked up the nomination. She also came on here and called her own Mother a liar, because her mother said that she did not vote for Hillary, and yet this same Dijamo never stops caterwauling about how if one single Obama backer said something about Hillary, that Dijamo took offense at, then that is cause for a Dijamo to go into perpetual Grouching PUMA mode.


Grouching PUMA, Hidden Dragon Lady.


http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/D/A/2/vote-for-spite.jpg

Who cares?

Because Pelosi doesn't represent a dynasty and a concentration of power.

Clinton does.

Sign me up .... In the immortal words of the Dixie Chicks, I'm not ready to make nice

Nancy Pelosi is not the employer of Hillary Clinton or the media figures who made sexist comments. She clearly did not feel that it was her job to challenge sexism during the campaign. She also clearly does not see the issue in the stark black and white terms that you do. Disagreeing with you is not a moral failure or grounds for "dismissal." And as I've said before, she surely has a lot more experience with sexism in politics than you do. Indeed, I doubt that any living politician other than Hillary Clinton has experienced more sexism than Nancy Pelosi. But you dismiss all that. All that matters to you is her unwillingness to take the self-righteous stand that you have self-righteously demanded of her. Failure to oblige makes her the worst person in the world.

Liam likes to pretend he is the captain of the team. "Remember team this is the mission. don't attack mccain on age. Feel free to call Hillary a bitch as you wish. I am very important. Listen to me dammit. Obama speaks to me directly and I am his prophet."

Liam has no sense of humor. He is unbearably self-important and obsessed. he does not get a freaking joke like even when followed by a smiley face emoticon. That's how non-funny and stuffy and assholish he is.:

As one of those 18 million, she speaks for me and my sister and one of my best friends who were all very sad that Hillary for sure. My mom sold out and joined the Obama bandwagon back in May. She tries to deny she voted for Hillary but I know the truth :) 3 out of 4 in my randon social network poll. So she speaks for at almost about 13 million folks. Not a number to be ignored.

Posted by dijamo
June 4, 2008 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink

Liam thinks his fucking cartoon is so witty yet doesn't have the common sense to get it through his skull that I'm not voting for McCain. Liam needs to go back to coaching school so he can figure out that the way to unify a team is not to take half of it and just keep berating them for no reason at all but to continue to seed divisions.

Liam is pathetic and hasn't realized that I'm not scared of him. Bullying is not an effective mechanism of soliciting political support and you are just sabtaging your own candidate with your asstastickness.

Wow, I finally got to recommend a blog after six months of reading the most insipid and vile slanders against Senator Clinton.

That feels good!

All that time wishing TPM had a "don't recommend" option has washed away.

You do realize how much time you wasted posting that, yes?

Three minutes well spent.

I type more quickly when I'm pissed but accuracy declines dramatically.

Now you have turned into a blatant liar. I never said that it was OK to call Hillary a bitch. In fact I said the exact opposite. I said that people would not accept having someone call their own mother that name, and therefore they should stop trying to justify calling any woman that name. That is what I actually said, but as a vicious vindictive liar, you are far more interested in fomenting division, with your lying turdblossom tactics, than you are in electing a Democrat.

Begone Grouching PUMA, Hidden Dragon Lady.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/D/A/2/vote-for-spite.jpg

Ohh poor sweetie got his panties in a bunch because I misrepresented him like he misrepresents me all the time. Like when you say I called my mother a liar or call me a PUMA.

Actually the only part of my response that was an exaggeration was the calling Hillary a bitch part. Everything else is 100% accurate. But life's not fair and when unfair attacks are directed at you, you get over it and move forward in the spirit of unity. Right?

I understand your pain - but I think there is a bit of a disconnect. How cvould you be so shocked at the idea that Hilary's being a woman both hurt and helped her? I, as a Hilary supporter (I voted for her in my state) who was eventually turned off by her intense and relentless negative campaigning, can see that. Similarly, Barrack's race is hurting him in some areas, and in some areas, it is helping him. There is nothing racist or sexist about any of these comments. They are merely statements of fact and common sense. Hilary was a great candidate - but the MEN around her blew it by not planning for the caucus states, urging her to too negative too soon - and by failing to see the remarkable amount of energy around Obama. If you want to blame someone - blame Mark Penn. But not Barrack - besides the single "she's likable enough" comment - everything he said about her was positive. Can she say the same?

Well, there you have it. You just admitted that you told a blatant lie.

You appear to think that it is OK to start a thread to call Speaker Pelosi "the worst person in the world", but you want us to believe that you are the great impartial defender of the dignity of all women.

Nancy Pelosi is a woman, and you called her the worst person in the world, so that makes you a complete fraud.

Well if Katie Couric is Olbermann's WPITW for merely looking at the media's role in sexism against HRC and you have nothing to say about that, why would you criticize me for having Pelosi as my WPITW for failing to speak out against sexism. Oh I get it. The democratic speaks up for racial discrimination not gender discrimination and the hypocrisy doesn't bother you or Nancy Pelosi. The dmeocratic party did not used to be this way and I hope one day we can return to decency and respect for all - preferably so the next female presidential candidate doesn't have to put up with the crap Hillary faced with no support from her party leaders.

Why do you care about attacks on Hillary? She's out of it. She's a Senator. She may be your candidate, but she lost. Lost. Get it? Apparently not...

Carry on, dijamo. With whatever the hell it is you're doing, carry on.

At least I admit when I lie (for the purposes of emphasizing how unfair it is when someone ascribes a position to you that you do not hold)as opposed to you who has no decency whatsoever. You just continue to do it. Turnabout is fairplay and I am not going to let some bully asshole like you lie about me and not return the favor.

Nancy Pelosi is a female. Her and Maureen Dowd are two peas in a pod - two petty females that relish in the destruction of other women they consider a threat to further aggrandize themselves. What real woman does that crap? Pathetic.

A PUMA by any other name is still the same. They are against Party Unity, and so are you. You said so on this very blog, which you created. Did you forget that you actually admitted that you were against Party Unity, just the PUMA movement proclaims. Here are your own words admitting as much:


"That's it. I'm starting my own Hillary support group called FU: Fuck Unity. Yes we'll vote for Obama over McCain, but to hell with all these fake ass democrats who have lost the basic core values of what our party used to stand for including respect for all including women. You deserve the inauthentic infomercial candidate that you have chosen to lead our party.
Posted by dijamo
June 24, 2008 8:17 PM"


PUMA, or FUMA, you are still working to keep the party divided. Your own words have exposed you.
Rant on all you want to, but Speaker Pelosi would never take such a divisive stand. Shame on you.

And what pray tell preceded that? An attempt at party unity and coming to the realizations that the Obama folks don't want unity. They want submission. Get over it. Line up behind the candidate. Attacks on Hillary proceeed for again NO REASON at all. I get likened to a house n***a because I dare to be an African American supporter of Hillary? Really these are the people that I am supposed to unify with? Word to the wise - get your own house in order before you come to criticize me. Until Obama supporters can act with basic decency and refrain from unfair attacks on Hillary, fuck them and FU (fuck unity). Now go waste your lectures on people who are far more deserving of it than I am.

zzzzzzzzzzzz(YAWN)zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

He's the candidate I'll be supporting in that I hope the he wins. Being from the great state of NY, I'll write in for Hillary. She's amazing and inspires me. Obama not so much.

That said he doesn't have a chance in hell of winning with the party this divided which is why it is so nonsensical that some Obama supporters want to deepen the chasm rather than build a bridge. Oh well. Obama and his campaign no longer thinks Bill is some racist dog who needs to be chained to the porch and now wants him out there campaigning for him. I cannot think of anyone who has more reason to give Obama the finger than Bill Clinton. So if Bill can suck it up, maybe some Hillary supporters can too. But of course continued attacks on Hillary and her supporters by some dumbass Obama supporters makes that unification much less likely. Case in point - me - further from spirit of unity today than I have been at any point in this campaign.

Try empathy. Repeated attacks on your candidate of choice and you directly will eventually piss you off. If the situations wree reversed and Obama had lost, do you think Hillary supporters would be in the nyah nyah nyah mode get over it and continue to attack Obama and then bemoan the fact that Obama voters are not unifying. You think the dmeocratic party could have openly mocked black voters who were angry that their chosen candidate lost and told them get over it and line up behind Obama?

Hillary and her supporters have been disrespected in the primary campaign and AGAIN the nomination process is over and some folks on the Obama side still feel the need to put down Hillary and her supporters. That's an express lane track to defeat in Novemeber and hopefully they'll come to their senses. But they are so blinded by hate that's very unlikely.

Who called you a house......? I did not see that, and I am very sorry that anyone called you such a name. I have no problem with your passionate support of Senator Clinton. I would not have it any other way, but the nomination season is over. Time to defeat the Republicans.

Nonsense. As a daughter of a politician, Pelosi is far closer to the term Dynasty, than Clinton. Neither truly are.

You are Humpty Dumpty.

There's glory for you!'

`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

`When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'

http://www.mtsu.edu/~rbombard/RB/Texts/LookingGlass/ch6.html

Careful, they came for Ferraro, they can come for you too.

dijamo, I read some very good advice recently that I think might serve you well at this point:

1. Fleur de Sel Caramel Ice Cream - Haagen Dazs. Instant nirvana.

2. Run on treadmill with iPod set to ANGRY. My personal faves are List of Demands (Reparations) - Saul Williams and Killing in the Name of - Rage Against The Machine set on repeat for 45 minutes (cool down to Eye of the Tiger as always :)). Alternate with kickboxing class. Instead of doing your usual visulaizations of the final battle scene in The Karate Kid, picture landing a roundhouse kick to Howard Dean or whomever has offended you most that day. Bonus - this helps counteract overindulgence of #1.

3. Come to TPM to express your anger and outrage. Some would say we should just bottle up my disappointments and sweep them under the rug. I respectfully disagree. So please engage others and tell them why your so pissed. Please note engaging in actual dialogue means acknowleding and listening to other points of view so that you can tell them exactly why they are an idiot or assacious. Verbal body slams and jousting helps us to vent our frustrations in a positive manner. And sometimes even in disagreement we find common ground in our core beliefs. Makes you realize that democrats are not as divided as we tought.

4. Remember what this election is all about: NOT MCCAIN

5. After you've vented your anger & come to the realization of what's most important, go back to your iPod to the mellow songs and play Love is Stronger than Pride.

That said he doesn't have a chance in hell of winning with the party this divided which is why it is so nonsensical that some Obama supporters want to deepen the chasm rather than build a bridge.

Build a bridge? Is that all you're asking us to do? Gee, I had it all wrong then. I thought you wanted us to kiss your ass and tell you it tasted like candy.

I am livid that you have the nerve to address me whith your unity bullshit and not look in the mirror at yourself and those seeding dissension on the Obama side.

What you're perhaps missing, dijamo, is that there is no longer an "Obama side". The race for the nomination is OVER. Finished. Done. Finito. Complete. There is no Hillary side. No Obama side. Just our candidate and the other candidate. And the other candidate, my dear, is NOT Hillary. It is John McCain. And he is a shriveled little pimp who calls his wife a c*nt in front of friends and wants to continue the destruction of our country a la George W. Bush. So buys your ticket and makes your choice. But please put to rest the notion that Hillary is one of your choices. She's back in the Senate. She's no longer a candidate.

As for for the party unity bullshit, that's about getting along with the party--not me or any other Obama supporter. I like to think--no, wait, I like to KNOW FOR A FACT--that if Hillary had won the nomination, I would be doing 100% less whining than you, and I would NEVER claim that Obama had lost because of racism.

I'm not saying I'm better than you, dijamo. Just less of a big, fat, spoiled baby.

I like your female/woman dichotomy. Very clever. So a female is like a dog, right? The classic definition of a bitch? Because a mere female hasn't yet raised herself up to the level of being a real woman? Is that how you see it? In other words, we aren't born with honor and dignity and relevance--we have do do something to earn those things. See, to me that's standard victim mentality. While Carly Fiorina runs companies and gets hired and fired for her work and not her gender and Nancy Pelosi serves as the most feckless Speaker of the House in recent memory--but not because she's a woman, but only because she sucks--it doesn't really matter because they're mere females. Hillary is a woman, and that's why she can claim victimhood. Because she raised herself up, and they knocked her down. So unfair. They disrespected her. They didn't give her her due as a real woman. They treated her like a female. Fuckers. She never had a chance in the first place, right? Because society is SO AGAINST HER.

I think I understand. Hillary inspires you, but it's not because of her ideas. It's because she's a woman. Not a female. A Woman. She's raised herself up. That's really sad, dijamo. You've made yourself into a victim, and you think you're a hero.

Jeez. I just read your comment again. "Two petty females." If you were a man, I'd call you a misogynist prick. Fucking Shriner.

dijamo, when you are attacked without mercy, that is a sign of respect. We are treating you as an equal. If we treat you with deference, you may take that as a sign that we are being tolerant. Tolerance is the ultimate expression of contempt. Tolerance is the attitude of Royals toward commoners. If we treat you with deference, it means we believe we are better than you.

Hillary was treated with absolute respect. If the press had put on kid gloves when dealing with her, that would have been a sign of disrespect. She enjoyed the same contempt, abuse and derision that any man would have received. Men treat each other in exactly the same way as they treated Hillary. They give each other shit. They call each other names. Hillary got treated like one of the guys. She got the full locker room treatment. When the guys treat you like one of the guys, that means they like you. It means they respect you. It means they think you can hold your own. It means they're not going easy on you because you're a girl. If they mind their manners, it means they're being tolerant.

I've always believed that the main reason dogs and cats don't get along is because when a cat wags its tail, it means it's angry. When a dog does it, it means exactly the opposite. This is a communications problem. It's not a sexism problem.

The reason men and women play sports in separate leagues is because men and women play by different rules. Women don't want to put up with the "foul" behavior of men, and men don't want to have to mind their manners. Politics is a male dominated sport. Women are welcome to play as long as they don't complain about the the way the game is played. It's OUR game. We started it, and we own it. That's a fact. When women get a majority, they can write the rules. Until then, get in line, sister.

Maybe we should have gender-based political parties as well. We could have a president for the women and another one for the men. Would that make you happy? Would that be fair?

By the way, for those who may be offended by my characterization of politics as a man's game: that was for dijamo's ears. She's an absolutist, so I'm forced to put things in ridiculously stark terms in order to communicate what I mean. I don't really think politics is a man's game. I think it's a hu-man's game. But hu-mans tend to place gender issues in perspective. Mans and wo-mans tend to get all bent out of shape about gender issues. And they're no fun to play with. Hu-mans are funner. According to the kitty-bunner.

1. Fleur De Sel Haagen Daaz was a limited reserve edition and I bought the only two pints I could find on SI. So cruel - it's like opening the gates of heaven for a brief second and then being returned to the banality of vanilla and chocolate and strawbery. Bleeech. I'm over it.

2. I ran on the treadmill with iPod set to livid and it helped some, but I'm still pissed.

3. Which brings to stage 3 of venting and explaing why I'm pissed. Maybe get it through the skulls of Obama folks that if the fight is now Obama and McCain, why the need to continue to swipe at Hillary? Why the need to antagonize HRC supporters rather than brining them together - even the ones who had already been in the acceptance phase? The only possible reason I can surmise is that their Hillary Hate is so much more important than...

4. NOT MCCAIN. Unity is a two way street and unless you start spouting lectures to those on your side of the fence continuing to seed divisions, then you are just another part of the problem.

5. Love is stronger than pride, but it is not stronger than respect. Contrary to popular opinion, I'm not the you need to kiss my ass type. I'm a person enjoys debating with people in a civilized manner (and verbal playfighting as well) and walk away at the end of the day knowing we fought the good fight and have mutual respect. I'm not the absolutist who sees all good or all bad in anyone...except quasar. She's equal opportunity asstastick as evidenced above and I'm sorry I didn't catch on sooner. Oh and other posters who turn civilized debate into hatemongering and race baiting that I shall not name here. I don't see that on the HRC side of the aisle (the real HRC supporters not the trolls) and I am wholly amazed that you guys have nothing to say to those folks and feel the need to lecture me about my unity crisis.

Respect is also understanding other people's point of view. Acknowledging sexism (even when you say it's not the reason Hillary lost) is a vctim's mentality? You are so right. A real victim just accepts the world as it is and all injustices and ignore them and continue forever because they can't challenge the system. A fighter is someone who looks at the system, sees the flaws and tries to correct them for the future.

It's not about Hillary - it's about what the democratic party stands for. And if the democratic party no longer stands for respect for women in the media, politics and in their membership, well then come out and say so. Otherwise accept the very valid criticism and make positive change in the future. The next female presidential candidate should not have to face what Hillary did and the democratic party needs to take a serious look internally and question why they chose to remain silent.

And FYI - Hillary's nobdoy's victim either.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/24/AR2008062401282_pf.html

The thing that seems to frustrate Obama supporters so much is they expected her to curl up into this woe is me ball of tears and she didn't. She defies this so-called victim mentality and yet still challenges the status quo not for herself, but for others to come. Hillary is my rock star.

Pelosi is a female victim passively accepting the sexism as something that does not need to be addressed for her or those to follow. Oh you know, sexism is just part of politics and why should anyone speak up against it? She's the Mean Girl who only cares about her own popularity and status and doesn't want to see anyone else challenge her for HWIC of the Democratic party. I don't have any respect for women accept the sexism that exists and expect other women to lie down and take it too.

So no you don't have to agree with me, but I expect to be respected. I don't agree with those who think Bill Clinton was a race baiting grand wizard of the KKK, but I respect their right to perceive the situation differently than I do. It's called treating others with empathy and respect. Real unity does not happen without it.

And just to clarify for the record, I chose Hillary because of policy not gender. If Obama was running against any other woman candidate, I would have chosen him (after John Edwards of course whose policies I also prefer to Obama). That said, if Hillary was NOT my candidate of choice, I would still be outraged at the sexist attacks in the media ignored by the party leaders and actively participated in by some democrats. It's called a principled position - sexism is wrong or it isn't regardless of whether you actually like the person. If that's what you consider absolutist, then you got me pegged.

Wrong again, bee.

Concentration of power at the White House executive level and talk of co-presidency (TWICE!) is dynasty politics.

Keep living with the fantasies about how YOU are part of the worker's movement via your father. Sloganeer away, angry bee.


Latest Comments