Educate Me

    Ha. Don't crush yourselves trying to be first in line, Dag Bloggers. I don't want an education on politics, thank you very much.

    What I'd like to talk about is education. As in public schools.

    See, what started all of this was my Thanksgiving dinner with my family. I don't have kids, but I have a lot of sisters and nieces and a nephew and two grand-nephews. And my eldest niece is a high school teacher. And my two older sisters have seen a lot of strange stuff going on in the education realm lately, so it became a hot topic.

    What I learned is that what I learned back in the day is obsolete.

    Take math, for instance. (Please! Take it!! Always was my least favorite subject, oy). Apparently, they are teaching kids a whole new way to do math. Long division is a no-no. There's a new way to do it now, and if you try to help your kids with their homework by teaching them long division, the teacher will yell at you during Parent/Teacher conferences. Studying times tables? Same thing. Kids aren't supposed to memorize their times tables anymore. Instead, they are supposed to figure out a math problem three different ways, and as long as each of their answers is “ballpark” accurate, hurrah! The math problem is solved.

    Huh?

    When I was in school, algebra didn't come into my life until after 7th grade. Now, they are teaching it to kids in 3rd grade, but only as a concept. Not flat out. Just a "concept". They introduce it to kids by teaching them the theory that variables exist, and unknowns exist, and as an example or two, they include a math problem with parentheses in it. Doesn't matter, apparently, if the kid "gets it". What matters is that the child is "introduced" to it.

    Huh?

    Teachers are supposed to have a curriculum they follow, but now in NY there are these new state tests that have to be taken at least twice a year. Teachers have to fit these into their curriculum somehow, without changing said curriculum. But now the tests are going to be taken every quarter and not just once or twice a year, according to my eldest niece. So now my 10-year-old niece comes home with a booklet every few months and has to study it on top of her regular math lessons and homework, and the test of course takes precedence because every school wants their students to pass these tests so the schools will get more money.

    Huh?

    Now, my examples here are just based on one family discussion over the education debacle in one state (NY). And I haven't even touched upon the issues in New York City public schools alone.

    Because I don't have kids, I'm afraid I've been out of touch will the whole subject. So I thought perhaps the Dag Bloggers could add their thoughts and comments here and we could have a good discussion about public school education these days. I know a lot of you know a lot more about it than I.

    So please.....educate me.

    Comments

     

    Ah yes the new math.


    Ha!  Exactly, C, exactly.  My eldest sister kept saying "We're not supposed to 'borrow' anymore!  We can't 'borrow' anymore!!"  Hee.

    Another one of her complaints was in regards to spelling and grammar.  She said that her kids were encouraged in elementary school to keep journals wherein they were to write down their feelings, their thoughts.  The teacher would read the journals but not grade them, i.e., not correct spelling or grammatical errors.  The important thing was for kids to get their feelings out on paper. 

    I seem to recall having a Composition Book back in elementary school (mid to late 70's) wherein I did the same thing, but my writing was critiqued and my spelling or punctuation or grammatical errors were corrected in red pen by my teacher.  Apparently, that doesn't happen anymore.  So children are encouraged throughout their elementary school years to write in these journals but not have their errors corrected.  So my sister days. 

    Boggles my mind, if that's true.

     


    They were doing the not grading or correcting journals even when my kids were in school in the 80's, and is hasn't changed. We want them to express themselves, not inhibit them from communicating. Sounds good in theory, except that they don't seem to get around to teaching them the proper way to communicate. I guess with spell check it becomes less necessary, but come on people...when they aren't on a computer they are screwed! The written tests that applicants have to take to apply for state jobs shows that these kids are practically illiterate! It's amazing.

    I remember when velcro shoes came out. My kids were desperate for them, but I wouldn't let them get them until they could tie their shoes. Then, no prob, but at least should they ever find themselves needing to tie a bow, they could do it. Same thing when they were encouraged to use calculators on their school work. I made sure they knew how to do the problems w/o the calculators, as well. And (bad mom!) I corrected their journals!

    As for math, we have introduced the Singapore Method to our granddaughter. It is a comprehensive way of learning math that really impresses me, because it isn't all about rote learning, but we will do that as well. Technology is great, but it isn't always available. Have you ever been at a check out counter and given the clerk $10.07 to pay a $9.82 purchase so you can get a quarter back, instaed of $.18 and they look at you with that deer in the headlight look that says I have no idea what to do with this money? Welcome to American education.

    I'm going to be a "bad grandma," as well. I can tell, already!


    You'll only be "bad" in the eyes of the public education system.  Given it's current state, however, it's so blind and confused it won't notice you.

     


    Not only did I have to know how to do the 3Rs in school. My parents, my mother really, mad sure all here kids knew how to cook, clean, do wash and basically what ever was necessary to take care of ourselves with out having to rely on others to do it for us.


    In other words. How to live.


    I did the same thing, C. When my son got married I told his wife, don't let him pull the I don't how crap on her when it came to housework. I wasn't about to turn another helpless male out into the world and made sure both he and his sister could fend for themselves!


    I hated math throughout grade and high school.  One day while attending an advanced algebra class, we got into exponents. I snickered and raised my hand to speak.  When recognized, I blurted my disdain for the value of teaching such detailed math to mere high school students!  To make a long story short, eight months later I was sitting in a Navy Basic Electronics class room trying to catch-up with fellow students who had a full understanding of exponents.  I'll never stop wondering how ignorant I must have sounded to my instructor who, ultimately, earned a doctorate in math.


    Ha!  Great lesson there, Chuck.  I'll be honest.  My fellow classmates "got" algebra right away, in 7th or 8th grade or whenever it was that I was introduced to it.  Me, I had still been struggling with fractions.  Okay, long division too, LOL.  I have never grasped numbers and I doubt I ever will, so when it came to algebra and geometry, I realized that Math would be the next class I'd start skipping, right after Gym. 

    Needless to say, I can't live without a calculator.  And I wish it were otherwise, but it ain't.

     


    Actually the new math in the video is from the

    From an article discussing a book Old Dogs, New Math to help parents deal with helping their kids with their math homework:

    Put succinctly: Remember how important it was to "show your work," as math teachers would say? Math Expressions is an extension of just that.

    For example, multiply the numbers 32 X 67. The old method would mean simply multiplying the two numbers together for an answer of 2,144. Math Expressions, though, requires that students work through the process. One method is to decompose the numbers to 60 plus 7 and 30 plus 2. Then multiply 60 times 30, which equals 1,800. Then multiply 60 and 2 for 120. Then multiply 7 and 30 for 210 followed by 7 and 2 for 14. Add the answers together -- 1,800, 120, 210, and 14 -- for the final total of 2,144.

    It's an admittedly long way to reach the same answer, said Susan MacMillan, director of math and gifted education for Toledo (Ohio) Public Schools, who acknowledges that she hears from parents all the time who want to know why schools are making math even more difficult and cumbersome.

    The simple answer: It's for the students.

    "What we're noticing in fourth and fifth grade is our kids start losing their math abilities," MacMillan said.

    In third grade, perhaps a student is asked to learn 20 elements of mathematics. The next year, the student is expected to retain that information and add, say, another 40 new elements on top of it. It's the same for fifth grade and up, all of which can lead to confusion and math anxiety for many students.

    "Kids don't understand what they're doing, then all the procedures get mixed up together in their heads. They don't remember, 'Do I add now or add later?' " MacMillan said.

    The more cumbersome method, she said, helps to eliminate those issues by reinforcing the full process in an equation.

    "They really develop a number sense," MacMillan said. "They start to think like mathematicians. Their thinking reflects their understanding of the concepts and not just rote memorization of the procedures.

    "The research on learning math is pretty clear. If you introduce a process or a procedure before the kids are familiar with the concepts behind it, then they don't care to learn the concepts. They just want the shortcut. That's part of the problem ..."

    Sounds like there is some logic behind this approach.  I would speculate, however, that too many of the elementary teachers are not equipped to adequately teach this method.

    The article goes on.

    While such a method may seem radical, new and improved ways of doing math certainly aren't new. "When I brought math home my mom would say, 'Well, this is not the way we did it,' " said Mike Shaughnessy, president of the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. "I don't think this is a new phenomenon at all."

    There have been many movements in education over the past decades. The song in C's video was written in the 1960s by Tom Lehrer in response to the New Math movement that losing it popularity at that time. From wiki:

    Lehrer's explanation of the two calculations is entirely correct, but presented at rapid speed, with minimal visual aids, and with snide remarks thrown in, making it difficult for most audience members to follow the otherwise simple calculations being performed. This is intended to poke fun at the kind of bafflement the New Math approach often evoked when apparently simple calculations were presented in a very general manner. While such calculations were mathematically correct, and arguably trivial for mathematicians, presenting them so generally was likely very confusing to absolute beginners, and even contemporary adult audiences.

    Which kind of goes back to the ability of the teachers teaching the approach.


    Good rationalization of the approach that drives my family crazy, Trope.  I appreciate it.  Part of what is frustrating for my sisters is learning a new way to deal with old problems.  And as my sister Jeanne pointed out, it becomes even more difficult when parents don't excel at math the old OR new way, or when English is their second language. 

    As you point out, teachers have to be able to teach all students at the same time, which can't be easy given that each student has his or her own learning curve, home atmosphere, etc. 

     


    A lot of it has to do with the approach. Kids are naturally curious. Just ask any parent of a two year old.  But it takes time, patients and a lot of work.  You do have to sometimes be willing to let them learn rather than forcing them to learn.


    there are so many variables that facilitate or suppress a student's chances at achieving academic success, as well as in other areas of life.  

    The frustration in our education system is in part due to that fact that we attempting to do something new, historically speaking, that is, have every kid succeed.  Most societies accept there are winners and losers in the academic world (although these days many of them have their children outperforming us overall).  The easiest way to have everyone succeed is to just lower bar. The old dumbing down routine.  There is also the pressure to find the best new methodology that will provide universal success to all the students.  Unfortunately there is no one method that facilitates success in all students. 

    Personally I prefer the more egalitarian approach in the US than the other track systems which determine outcomes based on performance at certain stages in school career.  Yet it requires even more effort and attention.  Something we don't seem to have when it comes to education.  It doesn't help that there is strong strain of anti-intellectualism in this country.  But that is another story.


    And putting teachers' jobs at risk (not to mention entire schools) by judging them based on test scores alone is not the answer.

    Problem is, I don't know what the alternative answer is either. 

    My hope is that someone high up in charge of public education is making a realistic study of what school systems are working, and where, and attempting to adopt some of their practices.  That is such an obvious approach, to me, that I'm sure it must be in progress, yes? 


    One thing would be to incorporate one or two other subjects into the one that is being taught. Like math into science and history. And history into science and math and english. So it kind of ties things together. I had a few teachers that did that and it worked well for me.

    Anyone who has seen James Burke's series Connections and The Day The Universe Changed can see he does that very well and it really makes the subject mean a lot more.


    Excellent.  Inter-connectedness is a great approach.  To this day I use it, albeit in my own weird and unfathonable way, when learning something new.


    Part of the Singapore Method Math I mentioned shows experiencing numbers in different ways...like a number three, the word "three" and the three dots on a die, so you get the CONCEPT of what three means. It was like why I liked the Baby Einstein videos that showed a real cat, a drawing of a cat, a cat stuffed animal, a plastic cat and the word cat...the kids EXPERIENCE cat, then can recognize it in any form. I find it amazing, and that's how we are teaching our young-uns. My granddaughter's kindergarten teacher is blown away by how much she knows already... Plus it's been fun for her, not like doing work!


    It sounds a lot like Sesame Street and The Electric Company way of learning too, no? 


    Sorta, but w/o the character association, plus slower, and less stimulating (and not so much stimulation is  supposed to be good for toddlers with their developing brains.) Anyway, I recommend it. For what that's worth.


    I understand what you mean.  Baby Einstein is deliberately calmer, with the music and visuals more relaxed.  My 10-year-old namesake niece watched their videos while still a baby (I watched alongside her and enjoyed them, myself, LOL) and she's turned out just fine. 


    There's Arne and Company, but there is a lot of controversy about his approach, inlcuding the Race to the Top program.  The problem is there are so many stakeholders, each with their own agenda.  Of course there are areas where agreement can be found.  But too often it becomes confrontroversial and people trying not to lose their piece of the turf.  One person's innovation becomes another's attack on tenure.  This person's reform becomes that person's attack on traditional values.  And so on and so on.


    The Race to the Top program isn't going over very well in my family's opinion, yes.  Much as I hate to say it, it seems that most home-schooled kids are actually out-performing other kids.  Or is that just a myth?

    I will say (scientific approach here, folks, get ready for it...) that in watching Jeopardy's weekly Kids Championship this year, the home-schooled kids seemed to outperform their competition.

    But then I think of the disadvantages of home schooling, and shiver a little.  Point one being there's no interaction (nor competition) with other kids and point two being that parents can hold great sway over their childrens' ultimate impressions on life. 

    As you say, no easy answers, and so on and so on.

     


    Call me Conspiracy Boy, but if we don't create tests for students to fail, then the GOP will have a much harder time justifying the privitization of schools.  If we do have tests and the students fail, then we will have little recourse but to accept that private schools are inherently better. 

    We just can't dismantle those public schools fast enough!  There is a great deal of money that can be extracted from parents and the government if we would just abandon this whole community organization and social consciousness crap and put our children's futures into the hands of a few who are accountable to no one and whose sole purpose is to generate a profit.  Isn't that better?    Well, prolly not if you take into account the issue of accountability and primary objectives, but let's not get ahead of ourselves and think about things the old way.  Let's just say, with all the other Conservatives and Republicans, that if we privitize schools they will be better.



    I could make an awful joke and say that I'm too dumb to read it, Flowerchild....but I won't.  Ouch.

     


    Maybe if we our children all had matching teal outfits, too, they'd perform better.


    That's it.  In a nutshell.  We all must wear teal from now on.  (But with a purple sash or pocket hankie, here and there....or, better yet, purple socks).  Teal and purple, baby.  The smartest colors under the sun.

     


    Whenever education in this country gets you down, and things seem hard or tough, or kids seem stupid, obnoxious or daft, and you feel you've had quite enough...just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving and revolving at nine hundred miles an hour, that's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned, a sun that is the source of all our power.  The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see are moving at a million miles a day in an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour, of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.  Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars. It's a hundred thousand light years side to side. It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick, but out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.  We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point. We go 'round every two hundred million years, and our galaxy is only one of millions of billions in this amazing and expanding universe.

    The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding in all of the directions it can whizz as fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know, twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is. So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, how amazingly unlikely is your birth, and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.


    Well bugger all beats nothing, right Trope?

     


    Imagine how fantastic those scores would be if those students went to private schools!  IMAGINE!


    ok ok I'm imagining....Now, what I am suppose to be imagining?



    Lis,

    Just take a look at this chart

    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/12/07/education/07education_graph/07education_graph-popup.jpg

    from this front page NYT article today:

    Top Test Scores From Shanghai Stun Educators

    You will see the U.S. doing just fine, in the middle of the list, for the first two columns, both Science and Reading. But in the third column, Math, we are way down at the bottom!

    So there! You and your relatives are right to be skeptical about how math is being taught in this country! Smile

    Something's wrong there! I'm sure people can make all kinds of argument about how this test is not a correct or accurate measure of education or what we want to educate or whatevah, but you can't explain such a difference of our results on one single discipline, especially within the context of so many educational systems.



    Thanks, ArtApp, for the link.  Yes, I'd say we're really sucking at math, LOL.  Wow.  My 10-year-old niece, however, is excelling at it.  She has an excellent grasp of it, oddly enough.  And when we ask her what she wants to be when she grows up, she says, "An engineer.  But also a veterinarian.  Or a teacher.  Or maybe an artist.  Or President.  I'm not sure yet.  Maybe all of them."  Ha!  (Aunt Lissie the braggart strikes again...)

    I'm inclined to think that the old school math was far easier to grasp, for most students, and worked just fine all these years.  Maybe it's time we go back to it?

     


    The only reason I think I got Algebra and the stuff that followed (well except geometry) was because my eighth grade math teacher recognized that I was beyond what he was teaching and handed me an Algebra text and told me this was my text book for the rest of the year.

    Though like Chuck above, it was my interest in electronics and radio that made it make sense and encouraged me to really learn it. Though I never did get calculus. But then I don't run into calculus much.


    If I ever run into Calculus, I'm gonna kick him in the shins, C.

    Hee.

     


    Hell we had the 'new math' in the 60's.

    But damn we did the arithmetic tables and then the multiplication tables in the third and then fourth grades if I recall correctly.

    1 X 1 thru 12 X 12

    And then it was over. Never forgot.

    Calculators that worked did not come to the fore really until the 70's. I mean the real calculators giving you Pi to the 60th decimal point.

    But with parents teaching their kids that the earth is ten thousand years old, I am at a loss.


    Well,  if they had to learn a slide rule and use log rythm tables,  they would know the world is older then 10,000 years old.  My first calculator cost me over $300 now I carry one in my purse that I paid a few dollars for that does more. LOL   I still have my slide rule but have forgotten how to use it.   


    Making test scores the bases for a teacher's raise or merit pay is unfair.   It seems to be the political thing to do these days.  It creates more worry then actually improve education.  Teachers end up teaching how to pass the test. 

    My grandkids are doing well in school.   I can't find any fault in the way they are taught math.  In fact I think it is better then the way I was taught.  

    My mother was taught to learn by memorizing everything.  She was a very good student.  I was told over and over how she always brought home A's.   When ever I asked my mother a question about history or something else I was learning in school,  she could not give me much of a answer or where to look for the information.  She never was taught how to learn and think.  I like that kids are asked to think and solve problems.  It will serve them well through their life.      


    Wow.  Great comment, Momoe.  You've made me rethink my whole premise, with that. 

    Yes, it's better to teach kids three ways to come up with the same answer, then.  Or a ballpark figure at the least.  Better that than to try to memorize everything for a test, coming up in mid-semester in the 7th grade, only to forget everything by the time one is 27. 

    As for what you say about teachers' salaries, agreed ten times!  If I could only remember how to multiply by ten.....LOL.

    Great comment.

     


    Learning is somthing you have to keep doing all your life.  Learning is a life skill.  It doesn't hurt to go back to school from time to time.  I have fun teaching my grandkids.   The world is always changing and you have to be ready to change with it.  My mother would have been sitting and watching Fox news if it had been around for her to watch.  She only saw education as a way to earn big money and it had nothing to do with enjoying and understanding the world around her.    


    Oh, that sucks.  Me, I get interested in how trees grow.  Why Scottish Fold kittens have ears that flap down.  Why sunlight can make a photograph scary or too bright.  Why babies laugh at peek-a-boo but then cry at sudden noises.  Education is a daily task we all have to strive for, in the long run.  Me, I know I have an awful lot to learn.  But I also know I'm not stupid.  I just know I have to know more than I know.  Hee.

     


    Oh I just found this:

     

    Chinese schoolchildren have trounced students from other countries on an international education test, reports the New York Times. The 5,100 15-year-olds from Shanghai, who were chosen to give an accurate representation of students across the city, came out on top against other nations in science, reading, and math. The United States, by contrast, placed 23rd in science, 17th in reading, and 31st in math. The test, called the Program for International Student Assessment, is administered to students in 65 countries across the globe by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. While students from Shanghai were No. 1 in the world, students from Hong Kong also performed strongly, placing 3rd in science and math and 4th in reading. An education official who served under Ronald Reagan, Chester Finn Jr., likened the performance to "Sputnik" saying: "I've seen how relentless the Chinese are at accomplishing goals, and if they can do this in Shanghai in 2009, they can do it in 10 cities in 2019, and in 50 cities by 2029." Current Secretary of Education Arne Duncan said, "We have to see this as a wake-up call." He added: "We can quibble, or we can face the brutal truth that we're being out-educated."

    The New York Times


    Yes, Flowerchild just showed me that tonight too, up above. 


    My grandson's Chinese Maderin teacher,  is here on an exchange program and is teaching American kids for the first time and is from China.  She told us parents that she loved the student here because they were not afraid to make mistakes.  She liked all the lively discusions because Chinese students don't do that.  They don't want to say anything that might make them look stupid.  She told us that childern in China is very shy about being creative with their learning.

    Hmmm...is education the scape goat for what the corporations have done?  Are we going to have to send our brightest to China to get a R&D job?   Just food for thought.   



    Mad poiuit

     

    What bored math majors come up with.


    I always hated math, preferring the uncertainties, vagaries and subjectivity of art and literature.  But um... in math ballpark isn't okay!


    Agreed!! Just think if our calculators and adding machines were to give us "ballpark" totals. Oy.

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