The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age
    Orion's picture

    SSRIs, Once Again

    I'm going to start off with an old example from back in 2001: 

    MATTAWA, Wash. (AP) _ Apple orchards are blossoming just down the road. But there is one student in Michelle Hansen’s honors English class who is not there to see it.

    Cory Baadsgaard is, instead, in the county jail, writing letters of apology to classmates he has known since kindergarten _ the same ones he forced into a classroom corner using a loaded big-game hunting rifle and swear words many had never heard him use before.

    ``It’s hard to write when you’re shaking and crying,″ the 16-year-old said in a letter that his friend, Clint Price, read to the class soon after the April 10 standoff.

    And school officials have since discovered that in the days before he brought the gun to school, he was having trouble adjusting to a new anti-depressant medication.

    Any number of factors could have prompted Baadsgaard to sneak through one of the school’s side doors with the rifle and burst into his classroom.

    Now, of course, the gun element cannot be discounted. We did not have assault weapons available a generation ago, and we also did not have psychotropic drugs being distributed routinely. Both are true at once.

    It continues with Adam Lanza.

    I want to say that the notion that antidepressants can cause this does not mean that psychiatric illness is not real. However, you're seeing this identical sort of extreme behavior in various people that was very unusual until very recently.

    Amendment: The super dangerous drug Effexor, which Corey Badsgaard was on, has been discontinued from marketing. That means it's only available through prescription, limiting it to people who actually need it.

    That was what Badsgaard lobbied for in interviews for some time and if it happened, it may happen with similar medications.


    What is the reason people are taking SSRI's in the first place? (psst, answer tip - many are very depressed, suicidal level)

    Basically you are saying if you were able to get rid of SSRI's, many would be hunky dory and not seek out guns?

    So if say, Adam Lanza was not taking SSRI's, he would be like any normal young man, not sitting in a blacked out room and collecting guns. Sheesh, if only his parents knew it was that simple, betcha they would have confiscated any SSRI's in a NY minute!

    (I think: what if they confiscated his guns? That makes more sense to me. And let the psychiatric people experiment with the drugs that might help him in the meantime. Knowing in advance that some may temporarily make him worse. Just sayin')

    Should the depressed and otherwise mentally ill self-medicate with opiates instead? Alcohol? Psychedelics? Would that help the gun and violence situation?

    It's important to look at what an SSRI does. It blocks serotonin much like cocaine and produces similar effects. It's basically a placebo with side effects when it comes to depression and is used in various situations that have nothing to do with depression, with doctors opting that it's a good idea based on whether the patient says they're feeling better or not or a desired good outcome is achieved, regardless of side effect. There's nothing particularly advanced about it - it's just the same sort of stuff that gets people wired up and ready to break stuff the whole world around, dressed up as something else in America and given out along with whatever gun you want to buy. 

    In Australia, they don't give these drugs to anyone below 18 and you certainly can't get a gun in that age range either.

    Ultimately tho, this country won't do either and we will be having this discussion again in 10 years.

    There are age restrictions on alcohol, opiates and psychedelics are a different story, so I don't see why an age limit on SSRIs is problematic when they seem to be a big problem for younger people.

    Don't you have a thread over to the right for [Antidepressants]?

    Offer: We could change the topic to the danger of statins! Over the years I've collected a boatload of both anecdotals and medical studies on the terrible things they can do, especially to men. Of course, they can save lives too. But everyone shouldn't take them.

    Nights imbibe statins, statin highland varies, my brain is feverishly trying to make something click... "Statin on the corner, suitcase in her hand..."

    Your equation of the two things still strikes me as ridiculous.

    For just this one thing alone - I am positive there are not 120 SSRI users per 100 people in this country

    More guns than people.

    — Barb McQuade (@BarbMcQuade) May 25, 2022

    I am also pretty damn sure that if Australia enacted protections concerning SSRI's for under 18, it was to protect possible distortion of still-developing brains, rather than any connection to actual acted out violence. Look Andrew Sullivan took testosterone (& still takes it?) for AIDS muscle wasting and admits it made him more aggressive and violent but he didn't actually act on those feelings! Same for tons of guys using steroids for sports. People still know right from wrong even when they are under the influence of drugs making them more aggressive and anger prone.

    IF TRUE, it would be an infitesimal percentage of the problem, like 0.01% of the problem of the rise in violent crime SINCE 2020.. Are you trying to tell us that everyone taking SSRI'S started to get violent in 2020 for some reason. It strikes as addled, confused, irrational and possibly under the influence of some drug to think SSRI's by under 18 year olds are the problem here! Were 1 or 2 or 3 nut cases involved with gun violence  taking SSRI'S when executing the violence? Undoubtedly! (with the major cavaet that nobody in the #ghetto or in rap or gang world, where much gun and other violence occurs would take that emasculating shit prescribed by a white doctor) Would those few nuts on SSRI's still do the same if they weren't on them? Probably! Because they are not just on another drug that would make them more susceptible to act on emotions (LIKE ALCOHOL HAS LONG BEEN KNOWN TO BE,) they are: mentally ill even without any drugs at all!

    There so many other reasons to see what you say as a logical fallacy of giant proportions. It's like you are obsessed by a single flea on another floor when there's an elephant right next to you in the room.

    There's certainly substances that mess with serotonin going around in rap circles. :P some rappers even made it to the big time selling them.

    In a lot of rap lyrics, you will hear interchangeably lyrics about slinging crack right there with shooting people. They'll talk about Glocks and Smith and Wessons just as they talk about doing lines and selling bricks almost as if the two are connected. Makes you wonder.



    Also there may be a reason that prescriptions for SSRIs may have gone up in 2020. They are the ultimate placebo with side effects and doctors may dole them out for whatever is at hand:

    I would say that the fact that Australia regulated these substances just as it did guns demonstrates that it's not either/or or zero sum and the leadership there may understand things for real, as opposed to letting their tribalism obscure half of the picture.

    America is an outlier both on firearms and on pharmaceuticals - it allowed advertising of drugs just as it allowed for sale and distribution of assault weapons. It allows for weapons of war to be distributed as sporting rifles and allows drugs with the same basic effect on the brain as common street drugs to be distributed as "antidepressants." A healthy society would have blocked both but we are not a healthy society.

    The news is now saying that Nancy Pelosi is moving forward with a ban on assault weapons. I say that it would also be a great idea to bring back the ban on pharmaceutical advertising. Just like an assault weapons ban wouldn't completely reduce gun violence, banning pharma ads wouldn't end destructive practices but they would really limit them and discourage doctors from prescribing unnecessarily.

    I am also pretty damn sure that if Australia enacted protections concerning SSRI's for under 18, it was to protect possible distortion of still-developing brains, rather than any connection to actual acted out violence.

    Makes sense. The ultimate problem in the US is they are giving them to children. They're not an issue for older people.

    I find it hard to believe any of the homies involved here are taking SSRI's, or any prescription drugs for that matter (maybe they could use some.)

    WANTED for ROBBERY: On 5/31/22 at 1:40 PM, inside of 777 6th Avenue in Manhattan, this man removed $1,745 worth of merchandise & struck a 42-year-old man & a 60-year-old woman with a bike chain before fleeing on foot. If you have any info, contact @NYPDTips at 800-577-TIPS.

    — NYPD NEWS (@NYPDnews) June 2, 2022

    Our @NYPDTransit cops recently arrested a career criminal for violating the transit rules & regulations inside the subway while also carrying these weapons. The man was also previously convicted for attempted murder. Our officers are committed to keeping the subways safe for all.

    — NYPD NEWS (@NYPDnews) June 2, 2022

    WANTED for RAPE! On Tues 5/31 @ 9AM in the vicinity of Beech Terrace @ St. Marys Park a 38 yr old female was forced @ knife point from her home to the park, raped & robbed! Take a look @ this pic, we need your help! Any info call 800-577-8477 (TIPS)

    — NYPD 40th Precinct (@NYPD40Pct) June 1, 2022

    UPDATE: The suspect in this case has been identified as Osie Lewis.

    Have you seen him?

    DM @NYPDTips or anonymously call 800-577-TIPS with information.

    — NYPD NEWS (@NYPDnews) June 1, 2022

    While conducting quality of life conditions, your Neighborhood Safety Team, Public Safety Team, and NCO's arrested an individual illegally carrying this loaded gun. The individual has a history of prior gun arrests.@NYPDBklynSouth @NYPDChiefOfDept @NYPDChiefPatrol

    — NYPD 67th Precinct (@NYPD67Pct) May 30, 2022

    WANTED for HOMICIDE: Do you know this guy? On 5/25/22 at approx. 6:53 PM, outside of 822 Clarkson Ave in Brooklyn, a 22-year-old male was shot in the stomach and a 38-year-old male was shot multiple times, causing his death. Any info? DM @NYPDTips, or call 800-577-TIPS.

    — NYPD NEWS (@NYPDnews) May 31, 2022

    What does Neighborhood Safety look like? Less illegally possessed guns on the street is a great place to start!

    Great arrest yesterday by your Neighborhood Safety Team Officers Brown & Einhorn & SGT Cruz. This Ghost Gun- loaded and illegally possessed, is no longer on the street

    — NYPD 46th Precinct (@NYPD46Pct) May 30, 2022

    Protecting NYC is a shared responsibility! Recently, a concerned NY reported a man playing with a firearm in Bklyn. Thanks to the tipster & the swift response by Officers Toba & Nasroodin from the @NYPD81Pct, they were able to arrest 3 individuals & recover these 2 loaded guns.

    — NYPD NEWS (@NYPDnews) May 29, 2022

    Not on our watch!

    Three wannabe cat-burglars were nabbed this weekend by Neighborhood Coordination Officers Maxwell and Gonzalez in a building on Undercliff Avenue. This loaded, illegally possessed firearm and stolen jewelry were safely recovered.

    Outstanding police work!

    — NYPD 46th Precinct (@NYPD46Pct) May 29, 2022

    NYC: On 5/26 at 1:50 pm, near 3 Avenue & E 63 Street in Manhattan, a 29-year-old male was walking when he was slashed multiple times in the back and arm by an unknown individual. If you have any information on the incident or suspect, contact @NYPDTips at 800-577-TIPS.

    — NYPD NEWS (@NYPDnews) May 28, 2022

    Right place, right time.

    Recently, officers from the @NYPD43Pct spotted a man who fit the description of a suspect connected to a crime. After a brief chase, officers arrested the suspect & recovered this loaded firearm that was thrown to the ground during the foot pursuit.

    — NYPD NEWS (@NYPDnews) May 27, 2022

    WANTED for a CITYWIDE ROBBERY PATTERN: Recognize him? Between 5/19/22 to 5/24/2022 the suspect committed four robberies in the Bronx, Queens & Brooklyn by robbing the victims at gunpoint & removing their cash. Have any info? DM @NYPDTips, or call them at 800-577-TIPS.

    — NYPD NEWS (@NYPDnews) May 27, 2022

    WANTED for RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT: On 5/22 at 2:30 am, in front of 134-22 222 Street in Queens, two groups were involved in a verbal dispute when one individual discharged a firearm multiple times. No injuries were reported. If you have info, contact @NYPDTips at 800-577-TIPS.

    — NYPD NEWS (@NYPDnews) May 27, 2022

    Could easily be smoking crack. 

    It's not news that messing with serotonin will get people ready for aggression. Just watch Scarface. Antidepressants just made it marketable, and AR-15s made the tools available.


    Tech investor and Arizona Senate hopeful Blake Masters blames gun violence on “Black people, frankly”

    — The Daily Beast (@thedailybeast) June 6, 2022


    nothing on SSRI's here, but encouraging talk about getting race off the table, including talking about those losing sons in affluent Silicon valley and in Appalachia to violence including suicide, bullying is a originator as is violence itself....


    There's been something really unfortunate going on with men for a long time, worldwide.

    What's that supposed to mean?

    I mean, it's overwhelmingly men who are waving guns around, isn't it? At some point something failed for them.

    Look at this dude's eyes and tell me he's not on drugs:

    you should go argue with Laura, she thinks marijuana is the culprit:

    Ingraham insisted authorities should focus on what she called “the pot-psychosis–violent-behavior connection,” not guns.

    — VANITY FAIR (@VanityFair) June 3, 2022

    (again, same with your suggestion, a lot more people started smoking it in 2020, before that, not so much?)

    People are more likely to fight over marijuana than because of it, but she might actually get an audience with Joe Biden. :P

    I worked at a rap magazine as a teenager. I had a buddy who was in agreement that coke and SSRIs both target the same parts of the system. One is a "disruptor." The other is an "inhibitor."

    More on that subject:​nida-notes/2019/02/disruption-serotonin-contributes-to-cocaines-effects#:~:text=Cocaine%20blocks%20the%20serotonin%20transporter,the%20motor%20cortex%20is%20increased

    And I think the cocaine trade is almost the reason rap music even exists, like going back to the beginning. That would explain why it was all about partying hard in the 1980s and all about being an outlaw "gangsta" in the 1990s.



    The medical industry's only genius is in marketing. Most of its drugs are just repackaged placebos, sleep aides or street drugs - and the industry just assumes if they give the drugs fancy packaging and a serious name, people will think they discovered something new and innovative.

    Whaddabout the 70s? GFlash & Blondie, early stuff. All Studio 54 takes the wrong exit to Brooklyn, how Andy Warhol celebs became Richard Pryor on fire.

    Various accounts demonstrate that 2020 led to an explosion of diagnosis for depression and anxiety, along with the prescription of serotonin blocking drugs to treat both those and Covid-19 itself, apparently. I imagine that quite a bit of crack and cocaine got distributed on the street for various street elements who found an already hard life suddenly a whole lot harder.

    There's some Rome burning stuff going on here as well.

    It's possibly SSRIs and then it's also possible that these are men that don't know what to do with themselves and figure being warehoused will make more sense.

    video just screams he's on SSRI's not

    he's acclimated himself to think of other human beings being in the way of what number one wants

    there are lots of people like that out on the streets right now and drugs are not causing it

    another opinion from Elon Musk:

    (Escitalopram is an SSRI)

    the thread continues...

    A thread highly supportive of researching your own situation (and excellent, mho) when you are taking SSRi's and similar or have anything going on affecting serotonin lelves I'm starting in the middle where she gets to her point. You might want to go to thread and read the intro explanation in the beginning about how many people have fucked up serotonin levels


    end tweets

    Mho, she is 100% correct that most medical professionals do not know how to (or don't care to try) balance hormones and body chemicals, especially because EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT, WE'RE NOT ROBOTS. If you're lucky and get one that will work with you, and those type are rare, you can get assistance and tips and work as a team. The easy alternative which many practioners do, is ONE DRUG AT A TIME. (And if you have a lot of complex problems, that could take years or decades, you may be dead before you feel better). There is no better solution than an educated patient working with a doctor as a team, and once again, those are rare. (She just happened to have the clonopin already, if she had to wait for a doctor to try it, it could take years.) Truth is all their tests tell them very little, they can only fix a few maladies, like diabetes and heart disease, and don't even know things like what levels some hormones and chemicals should be. Even the best scans don't tell them what your insides really look like unti they cut you open, and any honest surgeon will admit that! We are all guinea pigs and it's all trial and error, that's what "modern" medicine is, and only you, the patient know how you feel.

    Psychopharmacology can help some people, go figure. Thread:

    actually in recent reporting, it sounds more likely that the new marijuana could be faulted for a lot of things you are attributing to SSRI use, especially since it is not prescribed by a doctor

    Psychosis, Addiction, Chronic Vomiting: As Weed Becomes More Potent, Teens Are Getting Sick

    With THC levels close to 100 percent, today’s cannabis products are making some teenagers highly dependent and dangerously ill.

    By Christina Caron  @, June 23

    The doctors who prescribe SSRI's should be asking the relevant questions of their patients with the prescriptions and the patients themselves should not be hiding reactions but reporting them. Furthermore, if prescribed to a minor, parents/guardians should be watching and reporting too.

    You are blaming a drug which is already regulated by prescription! The drug itself is not the problem! Doctors and their patients are the problem, and parents/guardians of minors The problem will not be solved by banning a drug already regulated by prescription!

    You should understand the difference because: with a drug that is already regulated by prescription, the problem is the users! Not the drug.

    p.s. totally agree with the principle evoked here, if not the particular example

    NOTHING in medicine works that well without an educated involved patient or guardian!

    I have a dead spouse who believed the opposite, that you should trust what the doctor says from his tests because he/she is an expert because he didn't like his expertise in a totally different field questioned. MEDICINE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! It's not at that stage yet, this is not Star Trek Federation with Dr. Beverly Crusher's little handheld machine that tells her everything about her unconscious patient and what is going to work to make them well.  

    Well-trained and honorable doctors will say "we treat the patient not the test." You have to fully participate.

    You are totally on the wrong track blaming a prescription drug. Anyone on SSRI's can stop taking them if they don't make them feel better, it's just that simple!

    Actually, money and good insurance can open you to a world of treatments furnished by the for-profit medical-industrial complex and just as many of those can do you harm as do you well.

    (oh yeah, I forgot - my baby brother got terrible kidney stones eating too much raw spinach day in, day out over years, he was following Dr. Popeye)

    well now MTG picked up on your meme and it's trending on Twitter, here's a sampling of the reaction

    I’ve been on SSRIs for 20 years. I’ve never committed mass murder. I’ve never even thought about committing mass murder. It’s not mental illness. It’s the guns.

    — amy penprase (@amypenprase) July 5, 2022

    Now we're going to blame SSRIs for all the mass shootings instead of guns? I. Just. Can't.

    — Pharmacy is Phun. I believe in science. (@DreamPharmD) July 5, 2022

    Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) are a vital class of medication relied upon by millions of Americans to treat serious mental health conditions, particularly depression and anxiety.

    MTG, otoh, is an embarrassment to this country.

    — Matthew Cortland JD #ProAbortionAdoptee (@mattbc) July 5, 2022

    People blaming SSRIs need to realize a lot of us are on them for PTSD & other horrible effects of the violence people like them have done TO us. mtg is exactly like the woman who held me down for a guy to rape me. I know her type way too well. She is another rape fetish bully.

    — Kasey #blm #GLBT rights(@DogStarGirl) July 5, 2022

    Since MTG is seriously one of the most unqualified humans to deliver this, just a friendly reminder from a Pharm.D:
    -SSRIs and other depression medications are routinely and safely used in MILLIONS of patients in the US@RepMTG tweets like this are DANGEROUS for mental health.

    — Christina (@ceeemariegeee) July 5, 2022

    Hey ding dong, lots of us vets take SSRIs. They’re prescribed and given to us by the VA. Why do you hate veterans?

    — Jack'sHouseOfPancakes (@RegimeChangeInc) July 5, 2022

    we’re now blaming ssris for mass shootings & gun violence… every day it’s something new & it’s so fucking ridiculous.

    — cath (@cathalyse) July 5, 2022

    What the HELL are you talking about Big Pharma and SSRIs for in the aftermath of a mass shooting?

    IT’S THE DAMN GUNS, MARJORIE. @RepMTG #BanAssaultWeaponsNow

    — mollyswordmcdonough (@mollysmcdonough) July 5, 2022

    Nah, we are not going to blame SSRIs for mass shootings. I'm not here for this bullshit today.

    — Ebony Noor #Revolt (@DarlingEbony) July 5, 2022

    My depressed ass who's been on SSRI's for years, without them I would have off'ed myself years ago: *goes on twitter*
    *sees SSRIs are trending*
    *see's mtg's tweet about ssris*
    *reports tweet*
    *leaves twitter*

    — Jennifer (@introvertjourne) July 5, 2022

    SSRIs saved my life, fuck you

    — hailey (@guidemeback) July 5, 2022

    This is dangerous. Whether Marge likes it or not, SSRIs are lifesaving drugs for millions of Americans.

    — Jonathan Franks (@jonfranks) July 5, 2022

    As someone who has prescribed SSRIs to hundreds of people, contrary to what MTG is claiming, I have never once worried about Lexapro causing a mass shooting.

    JFC, lady. IT’S THE GUNS.

    — Joey (@JoeyLusv) July 5, 2022

    Girl SSRIs are some of the safest drugs out there. When are we going to talk about the glorification of guns and killing from you and your other #trump leaches. You dumb girl. How about you cover the costs of the mental health treatment for victims/witnesses of gun violence?!

    — Jessica (@glitznglam420) July 5, 2022

    Two different demographic groups bear the brunt of escalating gun violence and are most likely to die of a gunshot wound in America: young Black men and older White men.

    White men are six times as likely to die by suicide as other Americans. Black men are 17 times as likely to be killed with a gun fired by someone else.

    Don't think many of either are on SSRI's. .Actually it's more likely some of the older white guys would benefit from being on them!

    Furthermore,as to the suicidal, for whatever reason (depression or ideation side-effects from drugs) take their guns away and their success rate would drop astronomically

    About 60 percent of the gun deaths in the United States each year are suicides, according to CDC data spanning the past 20 years.

    Firearms accounted for about 8 percent of suicide attempts but slightly more than 50 percent of the 47,511 suicide deaths in 2019, according to the American Association of Suicidology. Men are nearly four times as likely as women to succeed in a suicide attempt, mainly because they are much more likely to use a gun.

     I doubt SSRI use increased drastically since 2020; you couldn't even get a doctor to see you while lockdown was going on. Again, it's more likely the firearm violence numbers would have been a little lower had more psychotropic medication prescriptions been given out

    There is little consensus as to why gun sales and deaths have jumped so much over the past two years. The only clear thing, Cook said, is that “the increase in homicide was almost entirely an increase in gun homicide.” Beyond that, it is difficult to parse all the things happening at once. Even the theories that have been floated about the rise in violence have weaknesses, experts said, adding that there is a lack of good research about what is driving the increase

    all from

    The staggering scope of U.S. gun deaths goes far beyond mass shootings

    By Mark BermaLenny BernsteinDan KeatingAndrew Ba Tran and Artur Galocha

     @ The Washington Post, July 8, 2022

    I would like to add this quote

    There is not one clear answer as to what is driving the rise in bloodshed, experts said, but possible factors include the stress of the coronavirus pandemic, fraying ties between the police and the public, mounting anger, worsening mental strain and the sheer number of guns in America.


    The surge in gun violence comes as firearm purchases rose to record levels in 2020 and 2021, with more than 43 million guns estimated to have been purchased during that period, according to a Washington Post analysis of federal data on gun background checks. At the same time, the rate of gun deaths in those years hit the highest level since 1995, with more than 45,000 fatalities each year. 

    (edit to add link)

    p.s. what's going on in this country compared to others is the number of guns in this country, nothing else comes close, certainly not drugs:

    “What we’re seeing is a different type of violence here in Pittsburgh,” said the Rev. Eileen Smith, executive director of the South Pittsburgh Coalition for Peace, a nonprofit that includes violence interrupters. “They’re not fighting, at least not outside of school. They’re killing.”

    The ample access to guns plays a significant role, experts said. Americans are arming themselves in the face of deepening fears and divisions, frightening public incidents involving gunfire or violence, or simply because they know others may also have guns.

    They have SSRI prescriptions and marijuana in other 1st world countries. You look at Australia limiting SSRI prescriptions to the underaged as if it's equal to their reduction in the number of guns, that's like a drop in the bucket compared to their gun ownership reduction.

    Glorification of guns as the answer to troubles is clearly the problem. Go back to Zelensky and the Ukraine. If he had not begged and begged and begged for larger weapons, as opposed to just individual guns, the country would have long ago succumbed to the Russian onslaught.

    You are just kidding yourself buying into NRA bullshit. Again, right there in the article

    Many other countries have disadvantaged folks who are angry and alienated,” said Richard Berk, a professor emeritus of criminology and statistics at the University of Pennsylvania. “But guns aren’t there.”

    I wrote a response but it evaporated. Take care. :P

    A sudden lack of access to doctors could easily account for withdrawal symptoms for large groups of people on these medications.

    Also the binary thinking, that's really just politics. They regulate both in Australia. Millions of people lose access to their doctors but gun stores are declared essential. A bunch of people are then shot. 

    SSRIs are among the most frequently sold drugs in Australia. Sertraline (sold under the brand name Zoloft) and escitalopram (Cipralex and Lexapro) are both among Australia's 10 most commonly prescribed medications.

    Fellow of the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of psychiatrists, Professor Valsamma Eapen, says SSRIs take a while to start to take effect.

    "They will at least take two weeks to begin to act, and then it takes six, eight, 12 weeks to really have the levels built up sufficiently to show you the benefits," she says.

    Doctors are likely to prescribe SSRIs as a first medication for anxiety because they have a good history of research behind them, she adds.

    Posted Mon 14 Mar 2022 at 3:38pm Monday 14 Mar 2022 at 3:38pm, updated Tue 15 Mar 2022 at 1:24am

    Where did you see evidence that they regulate them any more than the U.S. does? I.E., requiring a doctor's prescription? I don't find that.

    We discussed this one earlier: 

    In Australia, no antidepressant (including any SSRIs) is currently approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) for the treatment of major depression in people aged less than 18 years (5).

    I'm far more reasonable on this matter than it may initially seem. I have chosen to discuss this here instead of ion a more ideological blog because I've noticed, over time, that you guys get it whenever the media isn't really loud in the issue.

    I talked to doctors at length about this after withdrawal. What they said is that these drugs do "strange things" during withdrawal and they conceded that they are awful for younger people.

    This article by one antidepressant user demonstrates that she was going to need to take the pills forever in order to basically function. If a lot of people like that list access to a doctor in 2020, sending them in to withdrawal ....

    Guns are still popular in Australia even though you need a license. There are still crazy people even though you can be committed involuntarily. But I think the binary either/or thinking in this country is a manipulation to keep anything from ever being solved.

    We went through this ordeal 100 years ago regarding alcohol, which still does all the things that it does to people. Alcohol is legal but it's use among youth is taken very serious. We generally accepted restrictions on it. There's no real denial that these drugs are dangerous, just as easy access to guns is dangerous, but both sides are pushing back against restrictions that would maybe not end but would certainly alleviate the problem overnight.

    There's going to be no more logic to pretending drugs that warn of how dangerous they are are safe than there is of people who pretending guns everywhere doesn't create danger. Neither are things that should have unrestricted distribution.

    Giving psychotropic drugs to someone whose brain is still developing would be a problem in and of itself. Having AR-15s available to anyone who wants them would be a problem in and of itself. Both are true at once. It's good to have airbags installed in the car but it's also good if the driver isn't drunk.

    I'm honestly going to continue on this one until there is an age restriction on psych meds.

    Michael Moore on Antidepressants:

    That's Columbine. Yes still a  mystery so it's fun to speculate why some white middle class teens go nuts. So if you made sure SSRI'S were not prescribed to teens, that would stop how many mass shootings over a decade?  Maybe 5?M10? BUT what if it for some of those, it was the depression and not the SSRI's that caused them to do a mass attack? And they still do it. So you're down to maybe preventing one school shooting over a decade if you don't allow doctors to prescribe for minors. Oh wait, maybe the kid self-medicates with strong THC cause the doctor cannot try SSRI's for his depression and you have a worse shooting because he gets crazier.

    Meanwhile,this is what our current gun violence (Columbine kids did work on bombs, too, any weapons would suffice) problem really looks like. It has nothing to do with depressed white middle class kids on or off SSRI's and I daresay it has little to do wth AR-15's either. APPLES & ORANGES!

    The people involved probably don't even have a doctor much less a prescription to SSRI's. What they have is handguns, that they have, acquired in extreme mass quantities in 2020 and 2021

    Indiana mom gunned down days after burying 5-year-old son who was also fatally shot

    By Lee Brown, May 20, 2022 2:41pm 

    An Indiana mom was shot dead just days after burying her 5-year-old son, who was also a victim of gunfire, authorities said.

    “I don’t know if I have any tears left,” South Bend Police Chief Scott Ruszkowski told WSBT as he confirmed the double loss for the same family this month.

    Mom Kaylynn Davidson, 32, had buried her son Kyler Jackson on Thursday last week after he died from being accidentally shot by a 9-year-old nephew, the outlet said.

    Then on Tuesday night — five days after the burial — the mother was herself gunned down during a fight outside a restaurant, police confirmed.

    “I can’t even imagine or fathom what that family is going to have to contend with from here on out,” Ruszkowski told the outlet of the family “doubly affected” and “still reeling.”

    Councilman Pastor Canneth Lee, who led the young boy’s funeral and broke news of his mom’s death to the rest of the family, stressed that it was also a trauma for Jackson’s cousin, who accidentally shot him May 1.

    “They have had three tragedies: Kyler, the nephew and now Kyler’s mom,” Lee told the station.

    “This is a tragedy for our city because violence is a disease,” the pastor said.

    Police have not detailed exactly how the youngster was shot, beyond calling it a “tragic accident,” the South Bend Tribune noted. [....]

    I don't get what you and Michael Moore don't get about how, while reaction to over-prescribed SSRI's for depression or other mental ailment is a genuine problem for elites, this is a tiny drop in the bucket regarding our gun violence problem, and maybe no problem at all because most of those teens will still be suicidally depressed without the SSRI prescription.

    How can you even think it is a solution to the problem? That in itself is crazy. Is it seriously something to sort out about psychiatric medical care? yes. About gun violence? nooooooooooooooo

    Why did you even bother with the alcohol comparison? Another ridiculous comparison. Doctors never had the ability to prescribe alcohol consumption.

    Once again, SSRI'S ARE ALREADY REGULATED, YOU MUST HAVE A DOCTOR'S PRESCRIPTION. Your beef is with medical practitioners and parent of minors. Not with a drug!  For someone wth libertarian sympathies, this sure seems like a nanny state solution for our gun violence problem. Go yell at the parents, tell them to learn to get better feedback about their kids prescriptions!

    Hospitals actually do give out SSRIs without a prescription, that's how frequently they're distributed. Some hospitals give them to whoever shows up in emergency. SSRIs are a sort of active placebo. They are not an emergency medication needed for help with extreme depression or anxiety. Such a thing doesn't actually exist. The only litmus for success is if the patient feels better:

    For the point made earlier at the beginning of the thread - why do people take SSRIs? SSRIs are mystery wonder drugs, not just pills given out to the depressed or anxious. They were recommended by some journals during 2020 as a treatment for COVID-19:

    It is worth noting that that UCSF article doesn't even mention depression. It actually says antidepressants could make death less likely for COVID patients, so we are talking antidepressants as a solution to physical ailments now.

    Having to get a prescription from a doctor, which doesn't even happen in all cases, is hardly a regulation when some doctors see them as a miracle cure for any situation.

    As for parents, it's generally not the parents' ideas to medicate children. Schools are the ones who usually push the idea on to parents, as they believe a numbed child is easier for them to deal with, and children have been put on them in foster care as well, where no parents are involved:

    All of that in spite of a black box warning.

    There also is a history of doctors prescribing alcohol:

    Oddly enough, that was during prohibition, and it was during the "war on drugs" that SSRIs started getting doled out.

    I'm not a fan of black and white thinking and it is hard to see how people in rural areas firing rounds at each other has anything to do with SSRIs, but I would say it's the result of the same thinking. Politics has people forgetting common sense about danger. Michael Moore once documented a town that distributed guns if you opened a bank account. I'd say that's the same mentality as giving out SSRIs in foster care, just applied to something else. 

    People talk about being non binary. It's time to think non binary. Both guns and SSRIs are regulated, beyond a profit driven doctors initiative, in countries I have mentioned. Michael Moore, a vaccine advocate, questioned the efficacy of these drugs after making an entire movie about guns.

    Sorry but I do not consider any drug given out to patients of a hospital as given out "without a prescription!'' Either they are giving out the drug to registered patients of the hospital under the care of the hospital or they are doing something illegal. The point: SSRIS are a prescription drug, THEY ARE ALREADY REGULATED, the patient cannot get them without the approval of a doctor or hospital.

    Furthermore if you are going to continue to make this ridiculous point, with SSRI's in particular, they are known not to effect most people for at least a couple weeks, so if indeed some hospitals are giving out like a month's supply in the ER. or for an inpatient for a few days (in which case  STILL in order to continue on the medication the patient after being discharged from the hospital would have to have a doctor with prescription privileges transmit a prescription to the patient's pharmacy.

    Do you even realize how ridiculous this sounds to most people that outlier cases like this are the reason for the huge increases in gun violence since the middle of 2020 allover the country? BECAUSE THEY ARE REGULATED!  People cannot buy them over the counter.

    If the two were so clearly linked, this would have happened more than a decade ago or more (Prozac Nation, for example, was published in 1994 and the movie in 2001! While crime went way down!)

    Your questioning of what SSRI's do to people makes perfect sense.

    But twisting yourself in knots to prove they are a reason for the rise in gun violence looks like you yourself are crazy and on a jihad and no one will take you seriously on anything you say about them anymore.

    Edit to add: actually while you are ranting about SSRI's causing all evil and being handed out like candy, the DEA thinks different and is trying to cut down on the lax use of adderall prescriptions. That's the current fad with young people, adderall, not SSRI's.

    On adderal, for those interested:

    thread continues with lots of interesting discussion and also comments like these:

    Your questioning of what SSRI's do to people makes perfect sense.

    But twisting yourself in knots to prove they are a reason for the rise in gun violence looks like you yourself are crazy and on a jihad and no one will take you seriously on anything you say about them anymore.

    I never really said that. Tucker Carlson said that. I really went out of my way to dismiss that notion but to still insist they are dangerous as hell. The label warns that they're dangerous, and I'll keep reminding the world of that until they're no longer given to anyone under 18. This whole post is full of disclaimers.

    Adderall has also been around for a while. Saying kids moved on to another legal psychiatric drug doesn't really make the case that we are protecting children and that's the overlapping theme here - a general failure of American society to protect children. What's the cause of that failure? Cowardice. No one wants to be the one to stand in front of a child and in the way of a pusher, shooter or rapist, so of course all three are going gangbusters.

    Will there still be gun violence after that? Most likely, but it's just generally not a good idea to give psychotropic drugs to people whose brain is still developing. Give them to retirees. Give retirees guns too. Just keep things like that away from kids. Demonstrate some sort of control over what they're exposed to.

    BTW, 200,000 in grief with lives turned upside down:

    Also, while we are talking about ideologies, there has been a developing law and order bend to Dagblog. It's generally accepted by law enforcement that crime and drug use and abuse go hand in hand. The Left even accepted this concept when they talked about Reagan distributing crack cocaine in black communities in the 1980s. It's not a bold concept.

    Apples & oranges, dude - not New Crack City, "Colors", in years of "The Wire" & its follow-on "We Own This City" no big SSRI dealing. Check out Breaking Bad and Ozark. There's no big SSRI "mafia" or "gangland" in the usual uses of the word, no Harlem opium den serving SSRIs as well in the 20s, no RepoMan gangbangers saying "yo, let's do a bunch of SSRIs and go do some crimes!"

    The Left has got left behind on this pressing issue it seems.

    The drugs that Hezbollah imported for terrorists also messed with serotonin levels.

    Take the components of a street drug, repackage it and prescribe it and naive people think they're being clever by denying it.

    I talked to doctors at length about this one. They said bluntly things like "no one knows how they work, it's largely guess work."

    Again, it's magical thinking to think this is responsible for all of this, but in some cases it's actually pretty obvious when psychotropic drugs are at work:

    Hezbollah? when was the last Hezbollah "terrorist attack"?

    What does selling speed have to do with SSRIs, what does it have to do with terrorism?
    What does selling grass & hashish have to do with terrorism?
    As far as I can tell, the situation around Syria & Lebanon has calmed down, not much military action at all, aside from the usual border skirmishes/shelling that happens every so often just to pretend it's all "relevant".
    So again, we're mashing up topics. Hard to do a straight discussion that way.

    We'll replace it all w brain implants soon anyway

    altering your mind is already all the "unregulated" rage:

    Entering mainstream-How safe is your psychedelic trip? Mind-altering adventures are becoming a huge – and unregulated – business. Which ones should you take? By Maria Shollenbarger #FreeToRead

    — alain servais (@aservais1) July 21, 2022

    this is an excellent thread, including the replies that disagree with her

    all the participants put together gives the proper nuance

    personally, I especially like this one

    again, the problem is not prescription drugs that are 'bad' for you, the problem is doctors who treat tests instead of patients and/or do 'one size fits all'. 

    For some people, SSRI's might be EXACTLY what they need to fix being born with a faulty neurotransmitter system. Taking away all possible tools from good doctors willing to work as a team with patients in pain is the wrong way to practice medicine. It is an art, not a science.

    For minors, parents need to step in and be part of the equation of helping the doctor understand how the minor is reacting to any medication.

    Yes, it is dangerous to play around with a developing brain. But risks have to be judged. It does no good to leave a developing brain untreated if the alternative happens to be suicide.

    Example: They outlawed thalidomide after the birth defect debacle. Then they found out it was a very useful drug for other conditions apart from its original use with pregnant women. Nowadays, doctors know the drugs that are not appropriately prescribed for pregnant women; they don't have to be "outlawed". The doctor knows he shouldn't prescribe them to pregnant women.

    I am a hard on about SSRis because of what doctors told me. I expected a debate like we are getting here, when it's political, but I didn't get it. For this class of drugs in particular, I was told that they are basically some sort of active placebo. Doctors at elite university hospitals literally said "we don't know how they work. It's all guesswork." They could just be sugar pills.

    It's hard to believe in the efficacy of anything when the pusher says such things about their product. If people decide to defend SSRIs because Tucker Carlson says they're bad, they're really upset about him, guns or in defense of drugs as a rule. It's not actually about SSRIs, because doctors themselves are at least comfortable saying they don't know how they work and their enthusiasm for prescribing them only comes about because patients say they make them feel better and they are easy prescriptions to fill.

    I'd fully support any doctor who would have liked to try SSRI's on Omar here when he was like 13. Unfortunately there's no such thing, there's nothing, just Omar riding around on a dirt bike with his homie, shooting and robbing people until he's 18 and someone tattles on his record

    The point: something was ALREADY wrong with his head! The majority of poor kids don't do this! Something is wrong with his brain. Psychiatry is far from rocket science, it's still in its infancy, but I'm all for them trying anyways. The alternative is locking them up and throwing away the key. Forbidding tools to doctors is just plain dumb.

    by the way, there are lots more theories about why so many young men are depressed and acting out, like this one which make a lot more sense to me and others than blaming drugs that were actually invented to even them out and tamper down excessive moods:

    The staggered roll-out of Facebook at US college increased symptoms of poor mental health, especially depression.

    Paper by Braghieri, @RoeeLevyZ & @alexeymakarin:

    — Florian Ederer (@florianederer) July 21, 2022

    Remember back after Columbine how everyone talked about the wages society pays for bullying? We should revisit that; despite Melania's "Be Best" campaign (especially targeted at bullying on social media), there were 4 years of her husband's presidency where bullying was all the rage, the president did it virtually every day, and tons of people right and left reacted in kind with bullying methods. Guns are great tools for bullies, and also for payback by those who have been victims of bullies, and now thanks to "defund/abolish police" protesters, followed by the Supreme Court, bullies and wannabe bullies after being victimized by bullies, they can all enjoy their use more than ever before.

    and what do you do with kids like these when they get a little older (and there are definitely white ones like this too)? Their brains are still forming, and they are setting down violent and abusive neural nets! It's not set in stone, but it's really tough to change the older they get and the right pharmaceuticals actually might help such a juvie, once away from their godawful hopeless parents, that everyone is not a pissing angry fighter ready to kill your brother for a pair of sneakers:

    They underestimate environment vs "direct reflection of parents"

    I can attest that the public school environment encourages bullying and marginalization. It's a really alienating environment. People were privately tutored for most of human history. It might be a good idea to revisit that.

    I'd be willing to bet that getting zonked by and addicted to playing video games is a far bigger phenomenon, especially by males who have not reached adulthood, than doing the same with pharmaceuticals, prescribed or illegal

    An active placebo is a pharmacologically active substance that does not have specific activity for the condition being treated. Antidepressant medications have little or no pharmacological effects on depression or anxiety, but they do elicit a substantial placebo effect.May 22, 2019

    Is Kirsch full of shit? Beware of 1-trick ponies making a career on an outlier position.

    Great find. She sounds like a great clinician, with a lot of artful skill gained from treating many individual patients.  Have learned from much sad and bad experience that those are the best kind of doctors. Scientific studies of groups only go so far, because: everyone is different.

    This from her piece is basically why I get tempted to challenge things that Orion says on this: 

    My own beliefs aside, it is dangerous for the press to hammer away at the theme that antidepressants are placebos. They’re not. To give the impression that they are is to cause needless suffering.

    Unless it is an outlier situation with a lot of criminal activity involved like with Oxycontin (which it should be noted still helped a lot of people with extreme physical pain without addicting them - my mother was one of those) it is a rather strange position to take for someone with libertarian sympathies that a pharmaceutical that is already limited to prescription only by the federal government should be more highly regulated or outlawed for any one group 

    If you don't like the effects, stop using it, it's really that simple. Share your your own experience and the experience of those you know well with others online while being wary of bias confirmation. (But don't advocate that it be outlawed for others who say it is helping them!) Generally, a good doctor will welcome a patient doing  that and a bad one will belittle that effort.

    I would like to add that the article is over 10 years old. And many doctors and patients are still using SSRI's.

    I would like to add that the article is over 10 years oldold

    FYI, Googling i kept seeing Kirsch on the same topic every few years or so - with no one else's opinion til i struck this one, which seemed to address the issue rather well even being so old.

    2 different things - SSRIs in general consumption water tables, vs SSRIs near water discharge

    The antidepressants were found in fish collected over 8 kilometers (approximately 5 miles) downstream of the location of the wastewater discharge. The scientists detected several commonly used antidepressants in water, streambed sediment, and the brain tissue of white suckers, a native fish species.Jun 27, 2018

    Should the Serotonin Theory of Depression be discarded?

    Grabbing a few studies out of 15-20 years doesn't exactly address which are valid.

    Here's an article that *does* address why usual SSRI studies miss suicide effects by trying to avoid suicides.

    That's a good 2022 piece. I note that the underage thing was already addressed 18 years ago, A FULL GENERATION!

     In 2004, UK scientists highlighted that SSRIs might potentially increase the risk of suicidal behaviour in children and adolescents. Today health authorities warn about the risk of suicidal thoughts and a desire to self-harm, especially when these drugs are used to treat anyone younger than 25.

    So basically all practicing clinicians know that now, all prescribers take that into account. It is more likely at this stage of the game that lazy practitioners rule out using them on someone in the under 25 group when they probably should try them, rather than the other way around. Because they got the rule, if they play by the rules, they're safe. So if the outliers under 25 commit suicide when they could have been helped, tough cookies, at least the practitioner can't be sued.

    This is a helpful example of how it's all based on numbers, not individuals. If you want the best medical care, you and yours have to participate in the decision making, to tailor it to the individual, using it as the art form it is. Otherwise, you're gonna just get what all the cattle get based on "tests". That might kill you, you can easily be one of the outliers (it's way more common, though, that medicine makes peoples lives lousier until they die because they don't speak up and participate and just live with feeling lousier.) As I mentioned before, the best medical schools these days teach: "treat the patient, not the test."

    That's likely the basis of why SSRIs are regulated as they are in Australia. I am for adding those restrictions on here as well. Let's also add new gun laws, because this would result in delinquent behavior instead of terror attacks if proper regulations were in place.

    How about this? We bar SSRIs from use among the demographic citing in that black box warning, so no one below 25 years old takes it.

    Treating depressed children with antidepressants: more harm than benefit? J Clin Psychol Med Settings

    So what are you treating them with? Just let them stand on their own two little feet?

    Funny you should mention that, I was just reading a couple case histories like that the other night:

    ....Cornell struggled with depression for most of his life....During his teenage years, he spiraled into severe depression, dropped out of school, and almost never left the house.[29] At the age of 12, he had access to alcohol and marijuana; he used them daily by 13, stopped for a year, but relapsed at age 15 for another year until he turned to music.[30][31] At 14, he had a bad PCP experience and later had panic disorder and agoraphobia.[32]....

    from Wikipedia on Chris Cornell 

    ....Bennington struggled with depression and substance abuse for most of his life, starting in his childhood....Bennington's parents divorced when he was 11 years old.[13] The abuse and his situation at home affected him so much that he felt the urge to run away and kill people.[11] To comfort himself, he drew pictures and wrote poetry and songs.[11] After the divorce, Bennington's father gained custody of him.[7] Bennington started abusing alcohol, marijuanaopiumcocainemeth, and LSD.[7][8][12]....

    from Wikipedia on Chester Bennington 

    p.s. Chronic depression is a terrible disease and a real tough nut that medicine hasn't really gotten close to cracking yet. Doctors need every tool possible. And patients who have it need the very best doctors and most of them won't get them and they'll self-medicate until they can't cope anymore and then call it quits.

    So let me make sure I have this straight. The nanny state knows better than doctors what prescription pharmaceuticals should be used, especially the ones that Orion had a bad reaction to? Because like, there are some doctors who can't read the warning directions on the drugs they prescribe, the nanny state must step in? Spoken like a true libertarian NOT

    Psychiatry and Big Pharma exposed:

    Skip to 3:30: a brother following my logic:

    The problem here is that when this issue falls off the radar, you guys let it go a bit and become reasonable about it. Then someone like Tucker Carlson says something about it and the tune changes. The fact is that gun manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies are setting up the same logic: we make the product, many people use them productively so it's really not our problem if a few people don't, and once it is out there, it's out there.

    Gangs aren't killing each other with SSRIs. SSRIs are solving mental issues for some people - the number who are harmed undoubtedly are much fewer than number helped. See if you can apply that to guns, especially this year.

    I see a closer parallel to your attitude with Jool - the gov banned these non-tar electronic cigs because allowing people to vape nicotine is sinful, even if it lowers lung disease and the chance of kids getting hooked early to real (read: deadly) cigarettes. I mean, people could simply not smoke it if they didn't want to, while others could if they thought it helps or is enjoyable. It's hard to choose not to get shot.

    Most gangs are most definitely messing with their serotonin levels. :P

    Oh here we have it:

    So if a chemical imbalance may not be the cause of depression, what is? For decades, numerous researchers and public intellectuals have noted the substantial evidence that depression and other mental illness are linked to capitalism, the dominant economic system in the Western World — and one which governs the way we relate to each other, our selves, and our hopes and dreams. Oliver James, a psychologist who authored the 2008 book "The Selfish Capitalist: Origins of Affluenza," argued that the materialistic, self-obsessed and competitive culture of neoliberal capitalist societies instill "emotional distress" in their populations. Some of his evidence comes from the impressive rise in SSRI prescriptions in western countries, which far outpace population growth.

    Depression is a natural part of the body, a way of letting you know something is wrong. There is something wrong in western society we created an artificial environment that literally doesn't give a shit about human beings at all. You have a deconstruction of all the communal norms that made human beings happy for centuries.

    If the angst is that existential, then trying to dull it away with a drug won't help at all. The environment hasn't changed, the person just doesn't care anymore.The individual will simply double down on the psychopathy that the West encourages, oblivious to its effect on others.


    Simplistic. Dealing with family shit now - handling depression in COVID times is an art form, not something just to let go because it's "natural"

    Funny that only people who have never menstruated believe all depression is "natural" and not related to hormones, otherwise known as chemicals. (Will myself out of it? ya right after I kill my baby I'll start working on it...)

    Why try medicine at all while you're at it? Antibiotics are after all, unnatural chemicals too, and they definitely fuck with the 'natural' bioflora of most people's GI systems. Maybe we should disallow their use on juveniles and let only the strong kids survive when there's a food poisoning going around? Channeling Hobbes ....continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short...

    Nearly all commercially produced medicine is just manipulated stuff that is found freely in the natural world, altered in a laboratory somewhere, so no, you don't really need any of it at all.

    Life was only brutish and short in the West in the time Hobbes wrote that. Everyone else was doing quite fine.doing so well in fact that they had to be colonized and robbed.

    So where and how do you plan for the euthanasia facilities for the handicapped children that are born? And we should go back to the childbirth death rates of the past? And after the culling so that only healthy young adults are left, will you be going off on an ice floe at age 60 or so, so that you won't burden them with your health care expenses? You're starting to sound like a Leni  Riefenstahl movie....

    Here's the thing: to get off SSRI's you just stop taking them. It's called an actual free society.

    Edit to add a reminder: YOU are the one advocating that the government further limit people's choices in this case!!!

    I wouldn't say that. :most these medications are just lab composites of things that occur naturally in the world. They are developed with government grants. Without government, they would exist as they do naturally.

    There is a substance in the natural world that blocks serotonin. If anyone suggested it could cure depression or COVID, that might raise some eyebrows.

    There are things that naturally help with depression, but cocaine is not one of them.


    Keep talking bullshit

    most these medications are just lab composites of things that occur naturally in the world

    Nearly all commercially produced medicine is just manipulated stuff that is found freely in the natural world, altered in a laboratory somewhere, so no, you don't really need any of it at all.

    No, it's not - stop posting ridiculously overinflated half-true summaries of shit - tired of chasing down each absurdity with actual facts. Percent of new drugs coming from nature or *SYNTHESIZED* from natural products is about 50%, not "nearly all". This attitude that medicine is just skimming off of nature while adding nothing is insulting to a whole field of hard working people, and just inappropriately bullshit. 

    While roughly 50% of all U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved natural product-related drugs by 2013 are plant-derived, the importance of bacteria and fungi as sources for drugs has steadily been increasing since the 1940s (Patridge et al., 2016). Investigation of endogenous microbes in plants or other host organisms, novel microbial metabolites, or animal venoms (Cragg and Pezzuto, 2016) is expanding the range of natural products currently under research. ...

    And that doesn't mean this blurb from one 6-year-old article is gospel either. It's just an idea of magnitude.

    "people who have never menstruated" - and then they came for me

    just f.y.i.

    The amount of people citing this report as evidence that SSRIs make people violent who are unaware that it was authored by the Church of Scientology is really making me concerned for the future of literacy

    — Ej Dickson (@ejdickson) July 26, 2022

    ALSO on the more recent articles on a study

    everyone using that article as “proof” that depression can’t have chemical basis and that SSRIs are “wOrThLeSs” clearly didn’t even read the actual fucking article lol

    — toffeee (@ventisigh) July 25, 2022


    If you are checking the SSRIs trend because of one of many articles about a new study, please be aware this study is flawed and also led by a researcher who has, dubious intentions, to say the least.

    — Dice (@DiceOfAvarice) July 22, 2022

    and then there's people who don't need your opinion because they are taking them and like the results just fine, thank you very much but no thank you?

    since SSRIs are trending again reminder that for many people, (myself included) they are a life saving medical intervention and not something anyone wants to hear your opinion on

    — mallory (@mallorywarrix) July 25, 2022

    How the whole thing with poor reactions to prescribed drugs and other doctor prescribed treatments works on the internet in my experience: you share your experiences with others in the same position in order to help figure out what went wrong, why it didn't work for you. Can be enormously helpful and if you have a doctor that says stop that you need to change doctors.
    BUT you don't make it political and you don't make it a jihad and you don't call for it to be taken away from others for whom it is working! (Even if it's placebo effect! Actually especially if it's placebo effect! Why would you want to ruin things for that person? Why? What's in it for you? Misery loves company?)

    Really, you want government bureaucrats refusing to let doctors decide? While a lot of these people are self-medicating with illegal drugs or becoming addicted to legal ones like alcohol? Really? Are you a Christian Scientist or a believer in a similar cult where the belief is medicine is all hooey?


    And an active placebo doesn't do nothing. It just doesn't do what it says it does. There is a very famous natural substance that blocks serotonin.

    A doctor says he has a pill that blocks serotonin and suddenly it's a cure for depression, anxiety, and COVID 19. He readily admits "no one knows how they work." They're implicated in all sorts of behavior that seems a lot like people on cocaine or crack.


    More on how the West creates anxiety and depression:

    Suicide Rate by Country 2022

    [....] Countries with the Highest Suicide Rates

    Suicide occurs throughout the world, affecting individuals of all nations, cultures, religions, genders, and classes. Other innate factors, such as disorders of the mind and abnormalities at birth, can heighten someone's propensity for experiencing depression, whether as the occasional episode or a lifelong ailment. To lower the rates of deaths resulting from suicide, countries need to address many common underlying factors that add up and make someone more likely to choose suicide as an outlet. Depression rates are one factor that holds serious importance, but other factors to take into consideration are academic, performance, physical condition, mental health and well-being, economic standing, financial struggles, workplace performance, and overall life satisfaction.

    In 2019, the ten countries with the highest suicide rates (number of suicides per 100k) were:

    1. Lesotho - 72.4
    2. Guyana - 40.3
    3. Eswatini - 29.4
    4. South Korea - 28.6
    5. Kiribati - 28.3
    6. Federated States of Micronesia - 28.2
    7. Lithuania - 26.1
    8. Suriname - 25.4
    9. Russia - 25.1
    10. South Africa - 23.5

    The only western European nation with an exceptionally high suicide rate is Belgium, which ranks at number eleven with 18.3 suicides per 100k. However, it is worth noting that Belgium has some of the world's most liberal laws on doctor-assisted suicide, also known as euthanasia, which is likely to be a factor in its statistics.

    Countries with the Lowest Suicide Rates [....]

    Africa battles high rates of suicide, depression

    Many African countries are struggling with high suicide rates, for which there are no simple explanations. However, one thing is evident: There is a lack of professional help and comprehensive research into the causes.

    I don't see Jamaica there. :P

    Jamaica is good for those who have guns and are good at using them for homicide, not suicide

    p.s. Interesting that it's right up there, #2 after El Salvador at Statista: Ranking of the most dangerous countries in the world in 2022, by murder rate(per 100,000 inhabitants) Low suicide rate possibly because the depressed weaklings are culled by the wolves?

    Rankings for everything bad are inflated in order to get aid money. If a developing country reports progress, they'll end up like Libya.

    Cheers, everyone!!


    Drugs have long been utilized to inspire violence in people, it's not new in the world:

    A Brooklyn cop noted acidly, “You don’t have to be a genius to lower crime. All you have to do is keep the criminals in jail the first time you arrest them.

    I've been in NYC since fall 83. I saw it go from a crime-infested hellhole with bars on every window, wilding all over including shootings on the subway to one of the safest cities in the world especially once past 9/11/01 when stricter security was put in place with nearly everyone's agreement. I repeat in the world. As a small middle-aged white woman I wouldn't hesitate to walk anywhere or take the subway in the 5 boros at 3 am alone. We didn't outlaw any drugs that weren't previously illegal. (And I believe a lot of people were taking prescription psychiatric drugs.) All we did was have those arrested locked up. Obey the law or get locked up.

    P.S. we used to have a lot of airplane hijackings. we don't anymore. figure it out. quit making excuses for violence. i.e. everyone depressed or mentally ill or drug addicted is not violent.

    I grew up in Seattle, where the city long ago stopped doing anything about anything. When I was in high school, a group of kids quite literally threw dumb bells at me. No, literally dumb bells!!!

    It was a desire able school too. I reported it and if anything was done, it sure wasn't communicated.  I worked at a summer camp where I spotted a kid being abused and reported the abuser and the guy threatened to stab me. I was told he wouldn't come back to prowl and then he went and did exactly that, while also walking up the kids he abused.

    That world was all I knew so I came to the early conclusion that life is a non stop battle, that the world was full of cowards who would rather pretend child abuse and rape weren't happening and that you couldn't be in the most mundane and seemingly safe environment without worry. I had to fight all of the time.

    The environment felt so lawless for me, as it appears to for everyone there now, that all I wanted was to be somewhere safe. I cried about going to school and I felt angry about it as well.

    I moved to other places and had no problems, I moved back and found myself in hell all over again. When I talk to people I know there, they all carry weapons in them and they all have been caught up in the city's decay.

    Fast forward a couple years and that city appears to be thinking the same thing of itself. When they interview the people who wander the streets and have now turned Seattle in to Detroit 2.0, they say that 100 percent of them are dealing with addiction.

    There is no sanitarium, no involuntary commitment, so unrestricted wonder drugs are what's marketed to anyone with an issue, whether it applies to them or not. It could drive them insane or give them seizures but whatever. It's part of the problem, something that just made things worse.

    Drugs were part of the story, whether we want to see it or not. Do they explain all crime? Certainly not, but drugs are a tool of crime, one of MANY, something that reorients the mind towards illegitimacy. Rapists give their victims drugs for this reason. Drug cartels rule while parts of Mexico for this reason. The cartels have even expanded in to American cities where crime has unraveled:

    The 1980s and 1990s you cite as safe was the height of the D.A.R.E. program. Rudy Giuliani, the mayor at that time, touted "winning the war on drugs and crime:"

    Society and law enforcement saw this connection. Just as there was a ban on assault weapons, there was also ban on advertising prescription medication on television. The laws that I cite in Australia quite literally basically existed during the period you cite.

    Were the people who put that ban in place Christian Scientists? Did that stop the prescription of those medications or did it just limit it to people who warranted it? That ban ended in the late 1990s and Columbine quickly followed.

    This is why career criminals who may never have done a drug themselves invest in the trade. SSRIs, painkillers, etc. are not benign - they are the gateway drugs that marijuana was once touted as. They are not innovative - they are just legitimized versions of street drugs. They directly open the doors to other narcotic use. 

    And I would say that we have good reason to question western medicine as a whole. Christopher Hitchens succumbed to cancer, while Roman Reigns did not.

    Covering a lot of terrain there. Pretty sure crack, heroin, meth & opioids are the leading problems for dysfunction & criminality, and alcohol being the prime "gateway drug" combined with the usual flavors of party drugs. Yes, some people are prescribed painkillers and it leads to life problems. But more likely living the grunge life loco.

    And. wtf with the Christopher Hitchens cancer blurb? Our ability to treat cancer is marginal but improving after all these years. Of course it depends on what type of cancer, which drugs & types of cell therapies, etc etc - there are a lot of details you can't gloss over with "everything is everything".

    The whole Christian Scientist thing was mentioned. I would say western medicine should be questioned because it's just artificial versions of stuff that exists in nature, but aren't they against medicine as a whole? That's absurd. Medicine exists for a reason but we have manipulated and abused it in order to manipulate and abuse people.

    There's a Depeche Mode song where Dave Gahan sings about "senses which have been dulled." That is what all these chemicals do - dull the senses. Senses that are there for a reason.

    People hearing white noise in their ears 24x7 - theoretically it's happening for a "reason" (whose reason? space aliens trying to get in touch?)
    Nature isn't a god. Imperfection lies all around. Medicine just tries to explain stuff, find solutions through materials and procedures and changed behavior (as well as avoiding problems, toxic combinations). You've heard of "individualized medicine"? presumably as we trek down that yellow brick road, more and more should get individualized and/or automated.
    You might think of medicine as just a way to optimize comfort (which might mean not dying, feeling less pain, being more productive/having more energy, improving different senses, or a variety of other preferred outcomes. Sometimes goals may contradict - some people prefer not to have that life extending operation so they can have better quality of life the last few months, sometimes a small dose of opioids is better than facing the full onslaught of life-ending pain... YMMV. Correction, Your Mileage *WILL* Vary.)

    Pray and your cataract will be healed.

    What herbal treatments do you recommend from the forest primeval for a broken pelvis?

    Is high blood pressure just God's will for you?

    Where can you find insulin free in nature? I'm sure a lot of people paying for it right now would like to know.

    If your thyroid malfunctions should you just go blind rather than take that synthetic thyroid hormone? Oh that reminds me, did you know birth control pills are synthetic hormones?


    Praying to Jesus won't cure your ills but all of those pills come from natural things found in the wild of various tropical areas, added in with all sorts of synthetic chemicals so that you're dependent for life. Pharmaceutical companies likely mix and match the contents too, so that most of their products are active placebos.

    Something similar happens with our food, hince movies like Super Size Me, but that's a different story.

    I'm not touching the birth control issue because I'm not a woman.

    I experienced SSRIs and saw them in others. The doctors admit they're dangerous, the label says they're dangerous and the remedy to alleviating their widespread distribution is so simple that I'm not about to ease up on it until it's amended.

    re:cancer, an example: she's still having birthdays 18 yrs. after being diagnosed with Stage 4:

    they don't care so much about researching treatments for smokers' cancers, that's more the Hitchens problem. (Turns out every cancer is different, go figure!)

     Not sure there's much consciousness to expand in Oregon.


    The masculinity crisis that Josh Hawley and Tucker Carlson talk about would be more manageable if people weren't afraid wayward men might pull out weapons of war.

    — Burrito Don (@Ngatchou123) July 30, 2022

    I remember what it was like to be a teenage guy and a guy in my early 20s. The world really is trying to break and destroy you at that age, like some kind of an existential test, and you have all the hormones and aggression to fight back.

    Drugs are the last thing young men need when their hormones are already giving them a psychedelic experience, but weapons of war are something they need even less. We have had wayward young men before, after the Civil War, after WW2 and du ER ungb to get 1950s but baseball bats and switchblades aren't going to do the damage an AR-15 will.


    Depression not caused by chemical imbalance:

    Here ya go, this is better, this is what patients with a vested interest should read carefully

    By the way, nowhere do I see a suggestion that there should be tougher regulations on m.d.'s about prescribing SSRI's for any reason or any malady. Nowhere do I see any advocacy for a nanny state to interfere.

    This is basically: news you and your doctor can use and should use.


    p.s. here is a great reply from someone who describes himself as Just a Dad whose son went through the MH system, completely recovered and moved on and up. Into consent, integrity, evidence & psycho social recovery. (If you go to the link he provides on his home page, you will see that his son Luke was in a very dark place, he was experiencing depression, chronic anxiety and debilitating agoraphobia. Having dropped out of school, Luke was on powerful medication and despite lots of one to one therapy his life was on hold.)

    Medicating normal in the USA:

    My Mom got addicted to painkillers and downers in the 60s - what's new? As the one psychiatrist says, it works in the short run quite well. Doctors have 5 mins for you? Duh, we know this. But patients need some help. You're bouncing around between BS that "nothing works" - nope, see from your own clip - or "let's ban everything - again nope, it's helping them in the short term. Advocate less paperwork, more time for doctor-patient time so they can work out right doses and patient needs. Sure, meditate more, live a balanced life, pray like a motherfucker.

    Active placebos - doesn't mean it doesn't do anything. It just doesn't do what it's advertised as doing.


    This is done regularly BTW. It is what medical research is all about, especially psychiatric research. Here one of the the latest, you could call it


    The high potency cannabis that is now widely available may raise the risk of both psychosis and addiction, according to a report published in The Lancet Psychiatry.

    — NBC News (@NBCNews) July 31, 2022

    I don't think you understand what to expect from he practice of medicine. There is no "TRUTH"; for the umpteenth time IT IS AN ART, NOT A SCIENCE. Hormones and rlelated neurotransmitters are one of the things they understand the least scientifcally and must rely on skilled intuition combined with patient input to have successful outcomes

    If you do not feel well, find yourself the most talented licensed artist practitioner in the related medical field you can to help you. Fight mightily to get that person to help (that is your main job as a patient.) Then DO NOT LIMIT HIS OR HER TOOLS!!!

    A team is even better-the best medical centers, like the Mayo Clinic, know that now and use teams rather than single practitioners.

    Bullshit about maintaining a healthy lifestyle from edjumacating yourself on the internet is fine until you get it wrong and things go wrong. A simple example (I got a TON more complicated stories of near and dear, many of them dead): GenX brother, gym fanatic, ended up in the E.R. with the most pain of his life (and happy for that morphine shot) from kidney stones due to eating too much raw spinach, day in, day out for years. Going it alone is not optimal, that's why human beings started the practice of medicine, which is still a work in progress but actually has made a heckuva lot of progress.

    I think marijuana as a counterpoint is hazy when we have a president who still isn't comfortable with it's use. Dispensaries likely have age restrictions and while I could see it happening, it'd be unusual for a doctor to prescribe it to a kid who feels down or has behavior issues.

    Speaking of marijuana:

    You totally miss the point. The 'scientific' papers on psychoactive substances are not the final word!!! They change all the time! Psychiatric medicine is still in its infancy.  Your desire to limit the options of MD's as to treatment of individuals is totally undesirable. By politicians and bureaucrats, you prefer their judgment over that of M.D.s.

    It's supposed to work like this: when you started to feel worse on SSRI's, not better you're supposed to tell the doctor abd quit taking them. There is nothing else, that is the way medicine works! It should be based on each individual! If you're not getting that, find another doctor. The prescription drugs with ample warnings and usually continuing research are not the problem, lazy doctors are.

    Educatiing fellow sufferers is great.Calling for further regulation of a drug that is already regulated by prescription is, on the other hand, JUST PLAIN STOOPID

    I am on hormone replacement therapy since menopause, over a decade and a half, because I was lucky enough to have a gynecologist who was professor who knew that the latest greatest study that was impressing everyone to quit the same back then because it supposedly proved *hormone replacement therapy caused breast cancer.* He knew the study was flawed and he also had an inkling that HRT was the right solution for me. He was right on both counts. And a lot of women that were happy using HRT quit it and suffered for no reason

    And if all prescription drugs are useless scam inventions of the medical industrial complex and can be found in nature, how come my big strapping beautiful-bodied very dear gay friend Tim died at 58 from an asthma attack after his daily morning jog of 20+ years? He stopped thinking he needed to fill and carry his prescription inhaler. I guess he didn't look hard enough for the right herbs on his run along the Milwaukee river. He survived AIDS without catching it. Dead for want of his inhaler.

    Still makes me cry.crying I miss him so much.

    I'm sorry for that loss.


    Why bring up Biden?

    (yes, last is 6yrs old - not a lot on actual studies of CBD with children - which may be a problem with finding broad studies on Amy treatment with children)

    We went from porn to Russia so why not?

    No, *you* went from porn to full Russian sanctions discussion. I mentioned imported east Europe/Russian prostitutes and dancers as one huge part of the porn trade. Yeah, i should've moved your Guardian sanctions link elsewhere.

    The chiropractor I was seeing just before Covid for pain complications (supposedly from "arthritis" - I got wornout bones allover, judging from MRI's - l learned from also seeing a neurologist, an old traditional orthopedic surgeon and a rheumatologist that they call wornout bones they see on MRI's "arthritis", that's all that word really means if you test negative for the rheumatoid type - it's a bullshit word, they presume the bones are causing your pain BUT THEY DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT'S CAUSING PAIN, they really don't)

    he told me that I should try CBD oil and I did, the brand he said is trustworthy and it didn't help me.

    What did help me- his manipulations of my stiff neck for more than a year. The (smart but overworked cause he took Medicaid) neurologist said it was probably from my arthritis and gave me prescription gabapentin which didn't help at all. The chiropractor CURED IT within months, it's gone, my neck works now for several years- so much for the arthritis theory.

    So then the chiropractor started working on my lower back and hips and that did not help at all, it seemed to aggravate it.

    Then he came back from a big conference all excited, he said there are some clinical trials going on that shows TUMERIC is really promising for pain relief but you have to take large doses, so I tried it but it didn't help and I ALSO saw the old orthopedic surgeon again and he was interested about how I reacted to the tumeric, then he admitted that he had his wife try it and it didn't work for her!

    Then Covid comes along and I don't see anyone for 1 1/2 yrs. but I get sciatica so bad I can hardly walk or sleep like I did in the 90's but worse and I use a televisit for the rheumatologist to get diclofenac sodium and gabapentin scripts to tide me over until I can get another MRI. They helped a little but not enough

    When I finally get another MRI I finally get lucky the radiologist catches it, there is a big cyst on my spine that is impinging on that exact nerve! The rheumatologist, a very fancy one from Mt. Sinai, calls right away and says I have to see a neurosurgeon and the only way to tackle it is surgery. He says different, he says I should try the steroid shots from a physiatrist first (he also says he thinks I have stenosis, the rheumatologist doesn't.) I go for the shots and they cure my sciatica, it goes away! But the stiffness doesn't, I still have a hard time walking so I go to a physical therapist as advised. But he aggravates it, the nerve pain flares up every time and goes away the week away from him. I finally give up seeing him and it heals and completely stops!

    But the strong steroid shots may have caused a side effect with the hormones! I am getting night sweats all of a sudden for no reason. And I look at the drug used and it is the same drug used by the dermatologist several years back, scalp injections to jump start hair growth for alopecia experienced because my hormone therapy got screwed up. Hair grown back, sciatica gone, but at what cost? We'll see -still developing.

    The point of sharing all of this -  only I, the patient know the whole picture. For example, I suspect I also had cysts elsewhere on my spine in the past, I am prone to them in breasts and ovaries as well. I betcha anything the chiropractor's manipulations burst one on my neck that was supposedly caused by "arthritis". Steroids are dangerous but sometimes you need them (avoided back surgery!) the side effects are going to be a bitch to figure out and deal with 

    What is the alternative?Death or total disabiltity at a young age - life like our great grandparents.

    Medicine is not magic, it is an art of balancing risks and returns. The doctors know far less about how the human body works than many people suspect but it is still way better than what past generations had. AND IT IS WAY COMPLICATED, gets more so all the time. You can give up or try what they got, that's all there is!

    Thanks for the rundown. I've got an SSRI vs CBD vs who knows what issue now, but i don't have control over the situation, nor the complete view of what medicine's been used with what side effect, nor does any doctor that's going to take any time with it. So much murkier. Sure, CBDs have certain side effects, but a failed medicine set head to immediate spinning... while doing nothing is catastrophic. Welcome to (medical) life!


    I'm not saying to throw out the entire modern medical system, just to question it.

    Read back through - you've been saying to throw out everything.

    It should all be reassessed.

    everything is continually being reassessed and questioned - that's part of "scientific method" - when do you need it done by, sir?

    You know, this is a fair criticism. Another valid criticism is that I may be a bit stuck in place because coming off that stuff was such hell on earth.

    The medication I was on, Effexor XR, that turned the lights on and off with my brain is actually now off the market commercially. With how it's now distributed, I likely never would have taken it:

    Effexor has been discontinued from marketing, but Effexor XR is available by prescription. Effexor was discontinued because the newer time-released Effexor XR formula can be taken once daily and causes less nausea than the original formula.Oct 3, 2019 › injury

    Effexor FAQ - FindLaw

    Now, I wish I had never taken it and I'll maybe pissed about that for a long time. It is what it is.

    Generally speaking, because of what they are, I don't think psychiatric drugs should be actively marketed, only available through prescription to a patient who needs them.

    I'd also say guns should only be available to people who can substantiate the need for them.


    2A's been twisted as a right, not going away soon.

    Afaik there are limits on drug adverts, but not sure.

    Germany not long ago drugs were 17% of health spend - now they're 70%. So the pharma side is pretty whack for sure. How/what to fix is another matter.

    Effexor is the super dangerous one and it's been taken off of marketing. The XR variant is basically unavailable. The aforementioned Corey Badsgaard basically said that this is how such drugs should be distributed.

    I will also admit that when I talked with doctors, they didn't seem enthusiastic about prescribing this class of drugs and knew the dangers but were a bit like "this is what's in the catalog."

    As for 2A, I will admit that by the fact that something like Effexor is finally off the market, the defenders of it are far more absolutist than the drug end. Having an AR-15 is somehow equal to having a .9 millimeter. You can even actually get a machine gun if you go through the right paperwork.

    Artaporaiser noted that I was a bit stuck in time with this one. I may still be around for comments but I have to adjust my stuff.

    I'm wondering if CBDs actually help, but it seems there hasn't been a lot of serious research done on it, but that may be just my <5 mins looking at it. But I do imagine CBDs' side effects are a lot more benign than other approaches, so if it *did* have good effect...

    throwing my two cents in, I think they are much more popular for physical pain relief than depression or other mental ailments, that many find they take the edge of pain off so they can like, sleep or relax. But for mental ailments, many people still seem to need the THC? (Neither does shit for me, BTW - never even liked the effects of smoking weak marijuana when I was young, and recently some really strong CBD gummies from an Indian reservation made me 'high", which I didn't like and meanwhile the sciatica was still screaming - the point - again EVERYBODY'S DIFFERENT, we're not robots.)

    Keep in mind manufacturers have been known to stop selling and manufacturing prescription drugs voluntarily if the threat of lawsuits looms too large even if it is by reactions from just a small percentage of users, or even if the market is too small and there's no profit. The market itself regulates that way before the government even has to step in.

    (I remember how disappointed I and other users were when the manufacturer did this with an anti-allergy eye drop in the 90's because they were having trouble with the sterilization. They just quit making it.  Remember my doctor at the time said the Eye Hospital was looking into making it because the removal of the product was so devastating for many of their patients.)

    The point: you and others like Elon Musk complain about the effects of SSRI's BUT NOBODY'S SUING THE MAKERS for devastating side effects that have ruined lives. As well as needing a doctor's prescription, they have long WARNING LABELS, you're supposed to read them and nobody is forcing you to take them!

    I note victims are suing gun manufacturers but they're not going for maker's of SSRI's. Again, it's no doubt the case that they make far more people less violent and less prone to suicide than those where they cause the opposite effect.

    But by claiming they harm OTHERS who are not taking them as you did initially is really getting into "Twinkie Defense" territory, i.e. sugar high addiction as an excuse to murder. So if true, ban Twinkies? Nope. Ridiculous nanny state solution. Because most people on a sugar high don't murder.!

    As to harming self, higher suicide rates from SSRI's, if there is,NOBODY IS SUING over it!

    But on  other hand, we have a term that has become quite popular that friends, famlly use to excuse bad behavior by mentally ill people and that is they were "OFF THEIR MEDS". 

    Seems to me lots more family and friends complain that mentally ill people are NOT forced to take psycho-pharmaceuticals than the other way around!!! Mentally ill won't take them because they don't like the effects, and are allowed to quit, but friends and family wish they were forced to be on them because they make them less violent.

    I feel safe saying this in not due to SSRI's. Nor is it due to racist police. It is however, probably similar to things that go on in like, Pakistan

    Where are social worker SWAT teams?

    Meanwhile, "oversimplified serotonin explanations:

    Give the psychiatrists time, not so long ago psychologists were still their sworn enemies.cheeky (And then there was the related rift between the psychoanalysis fans and the drug prescribers, where you were either one or the other, it couldn't be both.) I really do feel for anyone that needs their help. Quite truthfully every psychiatrist I've met appeared a little crazy. Like I've said before, from the things I've read, I believe their field is still at the most infantile stage of all medicine, pitifully so. It's: thank your lucky stars if you don't have someone with like schizophrenia in the family, as the situation basically is that nothing useful can be done about it...

    Flathead County’s Sheriff Heino said rising methamphetamine use and mental-health problems during the pandemic contributed to more erratic behavior and more violent interactions between officers and suspects. Law enforcement in the county was involved in six shootings since May 2020, including four fatal ones. Before then, the last time a Flathead County deputy had killed anyone was 2007.

    If people don't know that by now, when it's been highly publicized since the mid 1990's when "Prozac Nation" caused a flood of info., and when there are warning labels on all those drugs, then I don't know what to say except: YOU NEED TO RESEARCH ALL THE PRESCRIPTION DRUGS you take. Medicine is a two-way street, the patient has work to do too. Those print outs that come with your prescriptions when you pick them up? READ THEM. They give them to you so you can't sue them if things go wrong.

    P.S. You can DIE from Tylenol, it happens more often than you think. I was reading about that only recently. It's sold over the counter, but there are very specific dosage instructions on the packaging that need to be followed!

    I think this is an excellent suggestion:

    And it would be a great benefit to require it on advertising for many other prescription drugs, too. (And don't get me started on nutritionists' prescriptions for healthy eating...)

    p.s. from that thread:

    I'd like to add that 15% is a pretty damn good number if you dealing with the intractable problem of serious major chronic depression!!! I get the impression that's actually a pretty phenomenal success rate with that malady! I remember reading about writer William Styron's case and how he tried everything over many years and finally found out that modernized electroshock as an inpatient was the only thing that worked some for him. And then there's others like Kurt Cobain who just basically give up on medicine and self-medicate until they die young from it...and all those who just pay a therapist weekly for their whole life just so that they have someone to talk to to keep them from committing suicide...and the many stories of woman physically abusing or even killing their children as a side effect of post-partum depression.

    Nothing should be ruled out. Whatever helps! The truth is major depression is horrible and incurable.

    ? that has nothing to do with SSRI's or even treatment of any psychological conditions!


    Common brands: Otrexup (PF), Xatmep, Trexall

    Chemotherapy and Immunosuppressive drug

    It can treat cancer of the blood, bone, lung, breast, head, and neck. It can also treat rheumatoid arthritis and psoriasis.

    She says her mother had a rheumatologist. Rheumatoid arthritis, if she had it, is an auto-immune disease (and long provable with a blood test, by the way.) Rheumatologists are experts in auto-immune problems and the associated hormonal dysfunctions. Which, like so many other things in medicine, are not fully understood. It definitely sounds like she had auto-immune complications from covid vaccination and one of the things they tried to help her was suppressing her immune system with methotrexate, but that didn't help, that caused a spiral down to liver failure and death.

    She may have had substantial kidney and liver damage already from using too many over-the-counter pain drugs over many years for her arthritis.  This is something you must balance when you treat rheumatoid arthritis - pain or earlier death from pain relief? You cannot take lots of pain drugs or things like antibiotics over many years without shortening the life of your liver and/or kidneys (same as with alcohol).

    And again, recent studies have shown that Tylenol can be very dangerous - it can actually kill rather quickly via liver failure.

    Also did you know many older people die after they break their hip and that is why they are afraid of falling and breaking their hip?

    Do you get how this works? Many people die from organ failure from the medicine that caused them to live way past the age they would have if they lived before the medicine was possible. THAT IS WHY IT IS BETTER TO TRY TO BE HEALTHY BY EATING AND EXERCISE rather than have to resort to medicine. Dr. Beverly Crusher being able to make it all better is fiction! Medicine cannot make it ALL better, it can only try to make some things better by balancing risk and make sick people live a little longer than they used to. It seems like you have not spent much time with the practice of fighting off the death of very sick people in the ICU, and with the phone calls of doctors where they cry and say they tried very hard to save him/her, but failed. I have unfortunately had too much.

    You are an advocate of taking some of their tools away. In doing that, you are basically advocating that more sick people die sooner and more of the healthy ones that don't need to try the art of medicine yet survive.

    SSRIs made available without any regulations:

    one simple chart proves Orion's theories wrong:


    one can blame other drugs, too, it's easy

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