MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Color coded revolutions right and left, so to speak. So many different points of view. So many reasons to guess one way or the other at what is happening and why.
Kiev is the battlefield that is pulling in the ratings this week. Are the demonstrators justified in trying to oust a democratically elected leader? Even if he is a jerk? Or if he surpasses some level of corruption? And was the election even totally or mostly or not even half way fair anyway? And who says? And who started the shooting? And if we think we know the answer, what trusted source convinced us? Why do we trust them? And, are we impressed at the distance some of those guys can throw a rock bigger than a softball. I know I am. Maybe someday it will be an Olympic event It would hurt my shoulder bad nowadays to even try to pooch one barely over a tall pile of burning cars and buses and whatever. Yeah, what Ever.
Do we react to a battle far away among people we know very little about, but what little we know we seem to think describes almost all of them, by picking a favorite and hoping they win or by trying to figure out who to blame for the fight in the first place? Or the second place. Or ... what Ever. Do we want it to end by any means or does it have to end totally on our terms for us to be glad it is over? Even if it is three thousand miles away? Do we believe the cops started shooting first. Might there have been a few radical assholes among a bunch of peacefully inclined protesters that lit the fuse that turned it all ugly? Maybe things really warrant hittin' the streets , I don't know. If planted as instigators, could they have been planted there to make the protesters look bad or to make the governments' reaction discredit them. So, planted by which side. Or maybe a third side? Do we really give a flying ....? And do we think it could ever happen here? And is there really more than one way to skin a cat? Depends on whether you want to end up with a useable pile of cat fur for kitten mittens or just like to skin cats, I guess.
The size and nature of protest actions that can determine the direction or outcome of a movement is in the news just a bit and I have found it thought provoking. Following are a few links that have caught my attention.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w
http://acronymtv.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/reform-is-dead-revolution-now-...
Or, to put it in another way:
http://leecamp.net/moc-286-is-a-worldwide-wave-of-action-on-the-horizon/
Comments
On the first link you provided
They pay to hear this BS? Towards the end with all of the "what ifs"
The non violence might work when resisting a small government?
But Assad isn't going anywhere, Putin isn't going anywhere. So I guess that goes into the category and percentage of those non violent situations that didn't work.
Totally misleading, because in Serbia, pressure from a well armed coalition forced a resolution.
With Saddam Hussein, do you really think he cared about Non violent protests? Eventually he was forced out of power by a heavily armed coalition.
by Resistance on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 1:16am
blither blog blather
waggling quick thick spastic tongue
mindless, simplistic
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 12:13pm
Ill look at the other links later.
by Resistance on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 3:07pm
But but but, according to most of your own arguments elsewhere, individual rifles and handguns are still sufficient to bring down a government like Putin's or an Assad or a Saddam or a Gaddafi, and you also believe they should be sufficient for generations to come to protect themselves against the same. Even though nearly everybody in Saddam's Iraq owned a gun. And as a matter of fact, they still do have a lot of guns in today's Iraq, where that factor doesn't seem to be helping a whole lot of people stay alive....then you could move on to Libya after airpower knocked out Gaddafi's regime, where the leftover proliferation of individual guns and other small weapons has proved to be very detrimental to life, liberty and the pursuit of a decent national government by its citizens...
by artappraiser on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 1:06pm
Who you going to call When all hell breaks lose?
@21:00
AA ...Who should the Harkis have called, after they were disarmed?
I recall sometime ago, someone posted a scene from a movie about Algerian resistance. In the movie, a French policeman passed by a cart and was shot.
When the authorities fear protecting citizens or they don't get paid to risk their lives to protect and serve; eventually with no law and order; Who you going to call? Yet you want to disarm us? I don't want to depend on some promise, by well intentioned people who can't even save themselves.who believe they can reason with violent people.
by Resistance on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 3:05pm
I've noted that whenever you are presented with continuing devaluation of rifles and handguns as useful weapons against governments, you start quoting long ago history and/or protection in an anarchic society, and the latter is a completely different thing than fighting a government, virtually an opposite thing. You change the subject.
The point: guns are no longer of much use in fighting a government. This is the reason we have the use of bombs, IED's, terrorism, strategic use of weapons like fire (in, for example, demonstrations in Ukraine and in attacks on embassies,) strategic use of masses of people in Egypt, Tunisia or Ukraine, and most notably, in strategic use of martyrdom either by suicide attacks or a variation of "death by cop." Because guns are no longer of much use against modern military machines and their value will continue to lessen as technology in weapons and defense progresses.
No one is going to take you seriously on this front unless you start advocating for the right to own armed drones and anti-aircraft and anti-tank missile launchers, you just sound ridiculous. It's not 1776 anymore and neither is it 1960. Nobody is fooled when you switch the topic to "we need guns for protection when there is anarchy." They are not the same argument at all, but very different ones.
Edit to add: And for the umpteenth time: nobody is fooled by your false equation that licensing means taking all the guns away. Especially not when they are less of a threat to the government than a convoy of automobiles blocking D.C. traffic would be. (And to repeat as well: automobiles have been available in mass quantities since licensing, where the ability to operate them is restricted by misuse of them, but even then they are rarely taken away.)
by artappraiser on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 4:43pm
I can’t help you then AA; it doesn't have to be either /or
"the latter is a completely different thing than fighting a government" or lack of one
Both realities can exist simultaneously and some people are not going to wait for the cavalry to arrive.
If our government told our troops “ fire on the protestors” and they refused and acquired the advanced weapons; I suppose you’d say “the troops acted illegally, they are not supposed to have those kind of weapons.
Think outside the box AA, quit trying to put me in one.
Yes!! some are really fooled and you’re the proof.
Who is going to keep track of the records of those licensed? The Stasi?, The KGB ? or the American equivalent (of course for homeland security purposes)
by Resistance on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 5:27pm
Both realities can exist simultaneously
No, I'm sorry, you cannot have lack of government and oppressive government at the same time. I'm sorry, some things you say without thinking just make you sound foolish, it's really no wonder you get ridiculed.
by artappraiser on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 7:21pm
Who said I can’t....... YOU?
You should be embarrassed with proclaiming such laws "you cannot have ......at the same time."
Only in your ,mind it is limited
We see failed States all the time on the News. In African countries especially, who lack government control in the cities and the vicious and oppressive warlords RULING outside. the city.
"some things you say without thinking just make you sound foolish" "you cannot have ......at the same time."
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 8:18am
I really don't think that requiring gun licenses is any way equivalent to having a secret police force.
by Aaron Carine (not verified) on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 11:17am
We already have a secret police force. I take it you don't read much news?
by Anonymous kgb (not verified) on Wed, 02/26/2014 - 2:09pm
No AA it is you that looks foolish to those outside this blog, when you always go to the extreme to make your attack, ( armed drones and anti-aircraft and anti-tank missile launchers)
Now don't evade this question below, as it appears when pressed, you change the subject.
"Could the Holocaust have occurred if Europe's Jews had owned thousands of then-modern military Mauser bolt action rifles?"
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 8:08am
Yes.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 11:42am
I have to agree on this.
A better question would have been: is it possible that such a reality may have prevented the slaughter ... or possibly pushed Germany into a less destructive arc as Hitler was forced to account for defensive street battles engaged in the heart of German civilization (with the inevitable collateral damage to civilian infrastructure and loss of innocent life) ... as opposed to being able to simply round up a powerless population without fear of resistance and successfully keeping atrocities safely out of sight of the general German citizenry?
I'd argue the answer there is also yes.
by Anonymous kgb (not verified) on Wed, 02/26/2014 - 2:35pm
You can look at Tito in Yugoslavia as one example, though the people in the Balkans are rather crazy - not every culture will resist like they did.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Wed, 02/26/2014 - 3:14pm
First of all, it's really nice to see you back here.
Second, I would counsel against Turtledovian backward-looking rewrites of history, except as amusements and bases for an interesting discussions.
It's so easy to move people and troops around on the historical tabletop map and rearrange what happened and think it a plausible scenario.
For one thing, those people were encountering this scale of horror for the first time. They didn't have the Holocaust and its lessons to learn from. They didn't have Hitler's ultimate defeat to rest their thinking on.
Yes, there had been pogroms, mostly in Russia, but German Jews considered themselves to be really, really good Germans, proud of their Iron Crosses earned with valor in WWI. They were more assimilated than Jews in America are today.
And they looked down on their brethren in Eastern Europe and didn't really want to be associated with them.
What did them in, I'd argue, was much more a state of mind and set of cultural expectations than a lack of arms.
So imagining Jews coming together in any kind of coherent fighting force is very hard, at least for me. We have the Resistance as a model to look back on, and they hardly stopped Hitler.
So I can look at the scenario you paint and say, "Yes, yes all that makes sense; all that could have happened if, if and if," but still not be convinced.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 02/26/2014 - 5:00pm
The Jews had been singled out as a detriment to society. Armed revolt would have justified mass murder in the streets. Similarly, if Blacks had fired on Bull Connor, it would have been open season on Blacks by law enforcement and vigilantes. You have to remember the times when the events were occurring. In both cases the bulk of the citizenry stayed on the sidelines while atrocities were occurring.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/26/2014 - 3:13pm
I'd say comparing the plight of Jews with blacks against Bull Connor is significantly different level, since Jews in Nazi-held territory were killed in mass numbers without having a weapon, whereas Connor's is speculation and at worst he's known to have commited & arranged massive amounts of police brutality but no murders.
We have the example of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in 1943 to know exactly what would happen. Despite a lot of bravery, over the course of 4+ months the ghetto was destroyed and most of the Jews killed or sent off to camps. Still, it was a point of pride and honor - less the idea they would actually stop the Germans, but it did slow them down for about 4 months, and if they'd been able to blow a hole in the ghetto walls, it might have changed things a bit more. Polanski's "The Pianist" covers some of these events in horrible detail.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 02/26/2014 - 3:57pm
There were 400,000 Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. By the time the uprising started, almost everyone was already dead. Only the last few thousand fought the Nazis.
With the benefit of hindsight, we wonder why everyone didn't fight with whatever weapons they had rather than go to certain death, but few recognized the scope of the Final Solution as it was happening. Even those with information couldn't bring themselves to believe it. Most Jews boarded the trains believing they were headed for resettlement in the east.
It requires great desperation to fight a well-equipped army, whether you're armed with homemade molotov cocktails or semi-automatics. That level of desperation didn't exist until very late in war. If the Jews had been better armed, the Nazis would have certainly disarmed them before they even reached the ghetto. The only real difference would have been a better black market that would have enabled the Jews who finally resisted to obtain more lethal weapons from the outside.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 02/26/2014 - 5:08pm
Yes. The totality of the enterprise surprised everybody, even the people who carried it out.
Discussing what could have happened instead only works if the conversation starts at the edge of that crazy place that was normal when the bad things happened.
by moat on Sun, 03/02/2014 - 7:33pm
You are always primed for an argument. If you don't like the Bull Connor analogy then use Rosewood, Florida or Tulsa, Oklahoma.
(edited to correct the Rosewood link)
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 02/26/2014 - 6:24pm
well, when discussing mass murder and atrocity, i assume one should watch p's and q's.
Yes, the Tulsa attacks/riots sound awful enough to put on the list.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/27/2014 - 7:54am
You just wanted to start an argument. You are the only one voicing objection. It is easy to imagine what Bull Connor would do if faced with armed resistance. Connor turned water hoses and Police dogs on unarmed children.
The Red Summer of 1919 provided other instances of White on Black violence in the United States. Chicago, in particular, stands out.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/27/2014 - 8:23am
No, I sincerely don't believe it appropriate to compare Bull Connor who AFAIK never killed anyone with one of the most murderous regimes in history that ethnically cleansed millions from several countries along with shipping millions off to detention camps in an atrociously anti-humane fashion. No, it is not easy to imagine Bull Connor doing anything like that.
That's not "starting an argument" - it's a moral objection and a plea for common sense as we search for historical analogies.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/27/2014 - 11:14am
We disagree on what the evil Bull Connor would have done. Mr Connor was involved in a failed murder plot. It is very easy to imagine Connor unleashing his rage on armed Black citizens. I'm surprised that you give Mr Connor so much credit.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/27/2014 - 12:11pm
Thanks, you just answered your own question - here's the "evil" Bull Connor who can't even manage to do a straight-up murder, while the Nazis had 4 million brownshirt thugs under the SS who had over 400 street fights and killed over 80 in street fights in 1 month alone, the Nazis who cold-bloodedly killed 85 leaders of the brownshirts in the Night of the Long Knives when they'd had enough of them, who burned down the Reichstag to set up martial law, and who destroyed 8000 Jews businesses and synagogues in 2 nights, sending 30,000 off to the camps.
Yes, Connor was a thug, but he still didn't rise that high on the level of human viciousness.
Interesting that the failed Shuttlesworth assassination looks a lot like the MLK shooting.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 02/27/2014 - 4:27pm
The original situation is what would happen if armed groups of people faced those in authority. I stated that I could see Connor using violence, you could not. Given that he was willing to participate in the assassination of an unarmed man, you were wrong.
We have gone through arguments like this before. You were willing to continue to argue that a Thurgood a Marshall was Rosa Parks' lawyer when it was clear that her lawyer was Fred Gray.
Given his actions, I stand by my statement that Connor would have responded with violence.
Note for the record that dead is dead. Those killed by Connor would not be relieved that they were shot by Nazi instead of being shot by members of Alabama law enforcement.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 02/27/2014 - 5:23pm
Yes, of course the police would have responded to gunfire with gunfire, with violence - that's hardly controversial - it's called law enforcement.
Comparing Bull Connor with mass murderers is controversial. For whatever an asshole he was, he still is not known to have killed anyone, which would make him pathetic in the Nazis' eyes as they orchestrated mass murder and ethnic cleansing. We're in Godwin's Law cuckooland now - there was no destroying of thousands of black businesses or churches - the bombing of 1 with 4 girls dying drew outrage, not eviction of 30,000 blacks. Even though that response was far from perfect - here's a great speech from a white guy driven out for his sympathies - the bombings and Connor's police brutality were breaking points where white southern Christians and humanists and moderates started breaking away, not a watershed moment for more violence like Kristalnacht. Even Wallace's standing at the gates of Tuscaloosa the same year (1963) was a face-saving gesture, not a serious attempt at defiance. Integration started across the state peacefully and Alabama's schools were completely integrated by 1968 - here's a story from a girl who went through it - tough times but still with significant pockets of white support, quite the opposite of Germany 1933/1938 where the situation went rather literally to hell.
PS - response from Rabbi Grafman after the bombing - a recurring theme is targeting the "nice people" who normally sit by even if condemning in private - a reference to MLK's comments, as well as a result of the German public's attitude condemned at Nürnberg - "we didn't know, there was nothing we could do"
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 02/28/2014 - 2:37am
See below
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 02/28/2014 - 8:28am
Useful is relative. If long arms and handguns were no longer efficacious tools for military engagement ... why do you imagine the most powerful militaries still issue them to the bulk of soldiers serving in every war zone? Obviously, they have *some* degree effectiveness in challenging military actors who prop up rulers (calling that "government" is often a misnomer IMO).
The idea that existence of multiple tools of war and that tactical realities favor one tool over another in a given situation somehow negates the power of any individual tool is entirely fallacious.
It is possible to slaughter a high percentage of any population that may be heavily armed with AR15s using air power or other heavy weaponry. However, this is rarely what a "government" is actually trying to accomplish. Directly imposing administrative rule upon such a population without their acquiescence is an entirely different ball of wax. Just ask any American soldier who lost a few buddies trying to control Afghanistan or Iraq. Seeing a comrade take a bullet to the head still sends quite a message, even in today's modern world. In the end, our "government" didn't win in either situation ... we finally just left because we're tired of getting shot at.
If an entity is unable to maintain administrative control of territories, it's difficult to argue that they are even a legitimate government. That seems to just as accurately be described as a military force attempting to conquer and subjugate an unwilling people for the purpose of occupying their lands.
Also, the anti-intellectual vehicular argument needs to be taken out and disposed of humanely. America's collective IQ drops noticeably every time someone proffers it. The lack of constitutional guarantee promising a right to bear vehicles aside, licensing is absolutely not required to purchase or own a vehicle. Full stop. Anyone can purchase as many as they like without restriction and can do any dang thing they want with them on private property. To the extent that there are restrictions, it is in relation to the *operation* of a vehicle - with a full presumption of innocence absent a person being caught using their unlicensed vehicle in an illegal fashion.
That said, you seem to be correct on one point: in order to serve the primary constitutionally envisioned purpose, the American right to bear arms should be interpreted to include full military hardware.
by Anonymous kgb (not verified) on Wed, 02/26/2014 - 1:54pm
Yet you want to disarm us?
Always with this straw man argument. No one here and virtually no one any where wants to disarm you. Once again. About three years ago I went to buy a rifle. I had to pass a background check. It took two minutes and I got my rifle. No one disarmed me!
I want everyone to have to pass a background check just like I did. I want gun shows to be included in the background check law. You ask, why should lawful gun owners be inconvenienced? Because its a very minor inconvenience that could have profound good effects on violence in our society. Compromises like this is how we get along as a society.
In case you missed it. No one wants to disarm you.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 5:33pm
At this time.
The unsuspecting bird, walking into the trap, taking the bait, and that is how the bird catcher catches his prey.
by Resistance on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 6:14pm
Fine so why not just admit that all your posts are bullshit. Its not about a rational consideration of the second amendment. Its not even about defense since you can still own a gun and defend your self with reasonable gun regulation. You will not support any gun regulation at all at any time because you think the government intends to disarm all citizens. I think that's insane and paranoid. So does probably everyone else here. Just be honest about it.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 7:33pm
Lemme step up to the plate...based upon the totality of his oeuvre, as preserved here on the Dag, I would like to disarm Resistance. (Sorry, pal.)
Edit to add: Nothing personal--I just think you take offense easily.
by jollyroger on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 7:47pm
Ditto. Would be one of the first on my list to lose a gun license, I've said as much to him already. So it's been personal, if you want to call it that. Of course, I wouldn't be the one deciding. There'd be an exam like with a driver's license, then the persecution complex and paranoid fantasies would reveal...far more dangerous with a gun than like, a wife beater with a bad temper.
BTW, he advocated locking up the mentally ill so they don't have access to guns on a thread a while back...hmmmm...(can find link if he denies it.) For him: the government deciding who is mentally ill enough to be locked up = no big deal; licensed guns = big deal. A very strange kinda bill of "rights" and "liberty", unlicensed guns uber alles.
by artappraiser on Sat, 02/22/2014 - 8:08pm
Citation, my bold:
Going to the full conversation for context fully recommended, though you may get dejas vus allover again.
by artappraiser on Mon, 02/24/2014 - 7:03pm
Heres what I think; So I am a sensitive person with feelings; better than being insensitive. as some who comment don't care, they hurt others with their personal attacks.
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 8:02am
You consider it a personal attack when you own words are repeated back to you. You become angry. If you are on the street and armed and become involved in a discussion, it is easy to think that you would become angered if you felt that you were losing the argument. That is the impression you have created.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 8:37am
Is saying a writer deserved to lose his job over an opinion a personal attack?
I don't think a person who publishes the opinions you do on the internet should be allowed a gun. That's a judgment of your words, like Jolly said, your "oeuvre." The pseudonym Resistance has to take responsibility for the ownership of what he publishes, the picture he draws. And people are free not to like the picture he draws or infer anything they want from it. If you don't feel like the picture they get from your words is accurate, change your words until they get a different picture. We have only the words to judge if we aren't in the room with you. You don't even use your real name, so, unlike Dick Metcalf, we can't look up your biography or an interview with you to try to get a better bead on what the real you is like.
When moderators say "no personal attacks" and "attack the argument, not the person," they mean don't react like this in comments: "you're an idiot" and "you're an asshole!" and "fuck you!" It does not mean someone cannot say "that argument is idiotic." It does not mean one cannot infer certain things about a person's argument, i.e., "you sound just like a Republican" or "you sound angry" or "you sound like someone I would not like to see owning guns."
Grow up. You are publishing under a pseudonym on the internet and can be judged by your words. That's what it's all about, that's all there is. Even if you got respect and plaudits for what you write, it's wouldn't be about you but about your pseudonym, the words alone.
by artappraiser on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 11:10am
Thank you, AA. You put it perfectly. That's the way it is. The pile-up on Resistance--justified or not, invited or not--too often stops all relevant conversation on other threads, but since this thread invites this kind of dialogue, I'm for monitoring it but stopping short of shutting it down. (Unless, of course, it escalates.)
Thank you all for keeping calm. (I'm gonna say it. Right now.) Carry on.
by Ramona on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 11:58am
You Grow up I realize that I am in the minority at Dagblog,
But I really don't need to protect the Second Amendment The NRA has a good team of well informed lawyers, with a cadre of Constitutional scholars and many more supporters of the Second, than some small group of misinformed "mutual admiration society" members ...... Carry on... form your circle.
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 1:33pm
You're simply wrong on every point as has been demonstrated
time and time again. The majority of Americans support virtually
all of the proposed gun regulations. This had been shown in poll
after poll. You're also wrong in your interpretation of the second
amendment. When even Scalia disagrees with you its clear you're
far out on the fringe right even among conservatives.
http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm
Refused
"Making private gun sales and sales at gun shows subject to
background checks"
5/1-5/13
2/13-18/13
1/9-13/13
"A ban on assault-style weapons"
5/1-5/13
2/13-18/13
1/9-13/13
"More teachers and school officials having guns in schools" N=740 (Form 1)
5/1-5/13
1/9-13/13
"Creating a federal government database to track all gun sales" N=764 (Form 2)
5/1-5/13
1/9-13/13
by ocean-kat on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 2:27pm
Disagreeing with someone's ideology or policy or politics is a different thing than finding a writer's arguments consistently absurd or ridiculous. If it's okay for Maiello to razz David Brooks on his logical faults, certainly commenters can do the same with a pseudonymous opiner. It really is presumed you are grown-up and not a child who needs to be approached walking on eggshells and need to have your ego massaged. Some might even presume you want to be challenged so that you can improve your arguments! The pile-ons always happen when you say absurd stuff, it's just that simple. You are right that the NRA does a better job than you do, that's for sure.
by artappraiser on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 2:52pm
Somewhere else, you said that you didn't feel you were a good writer or weren't good at expressing your meaning in words.
That's true of a LOT of people. Writing isn't for everyone, and not everyone is able to get his point across well.
Unfortunately, that's a liability on this kind of blog where the written word is almost all we have to communicate with.
So, consider this: People may well be misunderstanding what you mean exactly. And a good part of that may be because you aren't communicating well.
OTOH, you do produce a lot of words, so you have to admit (I think) that a number of people probably disagree with you vehemently and have trouble with the way in which you argue. Saying "your argument is idiotic" isn't the same as saying "you're an idiot").
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 11:50am
Thank you, Peter. It is a problem when most of us are anonymous and we don't know enough about one another to make the kinds of connections we might otherwise make before we get into discussions about sensitive subjects.
There are ways of keeping it impersonal (deep breaths, a momentary change of venue, chocolate) but it's not easy when we're so far apart there is little to no room for agreement. Let's face it, we're here to make our opinions known, but when the personal begins to hurt and every conversation becomes personal, we do need to address the reasons why.
I don't know if this is what Lulu had in mind, but it looks like this is as good a place as any to clear the air.
by Ramona on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:32pm
I don't know if this is what Lulu had in mind, but it looks like this is as good a place as any to clear the air.
Sorry, I do not know how to take this. If you will make it clear to me whether you think I might be trying to stay impersonal or maybe I am being too personal in a hurtful way, I will then try to make my intentions clear to you. Thanks.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 2:19pm
Lol. Sorry, Lulu, nothing against you. Just going by your post title is all. . .
by Ramona on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 4:28pm
Good reply.
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 4:39pm
Thinking about it, I might disarm almost everyone if I had my druthers.
People carry a gun because they expect to use it, or they're betting the likelihood is high enough to put up with the bother.
Expect for people who travel in dangerous areas or whose jobs attract danger or whose jobs require they pursue danger...I don't see that anyone should carry one.
As they say in football...deeefense.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 1:46pm
Plenty of laws on the books already. Has that stopped the law breakers?
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 8:11am
Plenty of guns, too.
Last I read 150 million of them.
They haven't stopped the law breakers either, have they?
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 11:50am
Actually, closer to 300 million, by most sources I found when doing a Google search on it.
by Verified Atheist on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 4:54pm
Yes, for those who were in danger of being victimized or were at the time being attacked; guns have stopped many law breakers.
But you wouldn't know that, if your only source of information was from the many biased comments on this site, unless someone was brave enough, to take the heat, for giving you the whole truth.
Thanks to Stand Your Ground, many more lives might be saved from the violent law breakers, who already know there are laws against what they are about to perpetrate against peaceful, law abiding people.
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 5:56pm
Again that's simply not true. Most so called defensive use of guns were used in escalating arguments that, if a gun was not present, would have resulted in just yelling or at worse a punch being thrown.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self...
4. Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments and are both socially undesirable and illegal
We analyzed data from two national random-digit-dial surveys conducted under the auspices of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Criminal court judges who read the self-reported accounts of the purported self-defense gun use rated a majority as being illegal, even assuming that the respondent had a permit to own and to carry a gun, and that the respondent had described the event honestly from his own perspective.
Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah. Gun use in the United States: Results from two national surveys. Injury Prevention. 2000; 6:263-267.
5. Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense.
Using data from a national random-digit-dial telephone survey conducted under the direction of the Harvard Injury Control Center, we examined the extent and nature of offensive gun use. We found that firearms are used far more often to frighten and intimidate than they are used in self-defense. All reported cases of criminal gun use, as well as many of the so-called self-defense gun uses, appear to be socially undesirable.
Hemenway, David; Azrael, Deborah. The relative frequency of offensive and defensive gun use: Results of a national survey. Violence and Victims. 2000; 15:257-272.
http://harvardmagazine.com/2004/09/death-by-the-barrel.html
even when people say they pulled their gun in ‘self-defense,’ it usually turns out that there was just an escalating argument—at some point, people feel afraid and draw guns."
Hemenway has collected stories of self-defense gun use by simply asking those who pulled guns what happened. A typical story might be: "We were in the park drinking. Drinking led to arguing. We ran to our cars and got our guns." Or: "I was sitting on my porch. A neighbor came up and we got into a fight. He threw a beer at me. I went inside and got my gun." Hemenway has sent verbatim accounts of such incidents to criminal-court judges, asking if the "self-defense" gun use described was legal. "Most of the time," he says, "the answer was no."
by ocean-kat on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 8:19pm
Another strawman argument. MOST? I wasn't talking about what others have done or abused I answered the the question posed, Yes their have been instances.
Tell the real victims, they should be denied self protection, because polls and research say otherwise, "you must be imagining things and maybe the rapist is just overly friendly, besides; the facts say MOST; so how can you say your justified in having a gun for self protection. Most of the time you won't need one, and if you should ever be in the other category, well Shiite happens" Little consolation to the victims to know, statistically the use of guns in real self defense events are rare.
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 8:39pm
I've engaged with plenty of pro-gun folks in real life and online.
So I'm very familiar with the argument and the stats often cited, though I wasn't aware of the study OK cites below.
But when I say this...
I don't really mean, "have there been instances of X," I'm saying that, in general, crime continues. I'm more than certain there are instances where pulling out a gun, or the threat the victim might be armed, has deterred a criminal.
I'm talking more broadly, as I believe you were in the post I was responding to.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 8:55am
So when you say...
Surely you don't mean that laws against murder, attempted murder, burglaries, etc., don't have a deterrent effect and haven't stopped crimes that might have occurred otherwise--do you?
You mean that, despite this, there are law breakers still breaking the law. That's speaking "in general."
But I would wager this: The laws against murder, etc., have probably deterred more murders, etc., than concealed or openly carried guns. Most people know what the law is, know right from wrong, and obey the law and basic social ethics. They also know that, in breaking the law, they risk serious jail time, especially for something like murder or attempted murder.
Also, putting more cops on the street has been show to drive down crime. For the average citizen, it's a LOT more time and money efficient to pay a bit more in taxes for more police than for them to buy a gun, ammo, train to use the thing, and retrain regularly to keep their skills sharp.
And this still doesn't include training for what to do in an crisis situation when the criminal, as he almost does, has the advantage of surprise over his potential victim. Not to mention the training and sang froid to keep innocent bystanders from getting hurt when one discharges a gun.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 9:04am
What he appears to mean is that he doesn't want the standards he applies to what others say to apply to what he says.
by Verified Atheist on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 9:34am
Claro.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 02/27/2014 - 11:38am
I also think this whole "regulation is just a first step to taking away everyone's guns"is foolish and extravagant.
by Aaron Carine (not verified) on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 11:20am
How can you say that? They've regulated driving and then they took away everyone's cars, right?
by Verified Atheist on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 7:27pm
THEY’LL TRY AGAIN, WHEN WE'RE NOT LOOKING. or they'll just hack the information through the back door or a sympathizer just gives them the password.
Homeland Security wants national database using license-plate ...
Sorry, but your trust of the government on the issue of Gun registration is not shared by others, who suspect government CAN abuse the information it gathers.
Imagine an enterprising government, knows you bought a gun, and you get your registration/license and this goes into a data base, that when combined with all other information, they can ascertain what intersection you are usually near at 7:45 AM on your way to work; where they might find you at any given time, because of a pattern. What store you shop at, so they can pick you up anytime they want in the parking lot. Your friends ask, " Hey anybody seen Joe? He's been missing for weeks.
Don't tell us about how Secret agencies, cant abuse power. The government tried on this license reader attempt, but that doesn't mean they couldn't just hack the files.
If I want to buy a gun and I am not on any list prohibiting me, I don't care to give the government anymore of my personal information.
So they can say "approach with caution, the person is most likely armed, so shoot first; ask questions later" Of course if you do die, they'll claim you waved the gun found at the scene, or they could just plant one I guess. He was a known gun owner.
by Resistance on Sun, 02/23/2014 - 8:21pm
What? And you think you're going to shoot it out with the NSA when they've blocked you in on all sides and make it through?
Here's the thing to consider: An ordinary criminal might be deterred if he knows you have a gun. But the police and government agents, such as the ones you envision here, are prepared for violence, and they carry their own. They're prepared with guns of their own, and they've spent a lot of time training to use them in all kinds of situations. And not just at the level of weaponry, but also tactics, i.e., what to do when the target does this, does that, does the other thing.
So I'm not poo-pooing your worry about corrupt government. I do respectfully suggest, however, that carrying a gun does nothing to address this worry.
Tales of GW and his band of motley brothers fighting off tyrannical government has no relevance to today. First of all, they became an army (of sorts), and only became effective as an army and second, they would've been defeated, IMO, without France or had Britain gone for the kill early on. Or had Britain (as the US government is) been located on this continent instead of 3,000 miles and a month's journey away.
Cramer talked about childishness. Pretending we're in a situation analogous to 1776 is real childishness, IMO. Yes, many, many of our founding principles endure, along with our founders' thinking, but the reality of warfare and gunfare and fightingfare has changed radically. So radically that what was true then is no longer true. Politics is the only way to fight this fight.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 9:23am
It's also a little hard to know what this means...
Are they referring to EZ Pass transponders or the like? Otherwise, I don't see how having a picture of a car's license plate enables anyone to track where the car goes or is at any moment. Unless the contract was to install cameras everywhere, though there's no indication that that was the case. Or maybe they're talking about satellite tracking, though that's also not indicated.
As far as being able to relate a license plate to a particular home address...well, the government has LONG had that information.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 9:33am
I don't know what R is referring to, but there are several new avenues opening that will allow the government to track our movements, and just like privacy concerns with using Google, there are tradeoffs involved that make it difficult to decide what is the best thing to do. For example, see this article from CNN. Here's an excerpt:
It's easy to understand why some privacy advocates would be concerned. For me, I think the safety outweighs the privacy risks, but just barely, and I could be convinced otherwise.
Edit to add disclaimer: I have a professional investment in this research.
by Verified Atheist on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 9:48am
So this is a better description of the tracking system...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/homeland-security-is-seeking-a-national-license-plate-tracking-system/2014/02/18/56474ae8-9816-11e3-9616-d367fa6ea99b_story.html
And here's the Web site of Vigilant, the leading provider of this service to state law enforcement agencies...
http://vigilantsolutions.com/products/nvls
I recall once being mailed a ticket for speeding along with a nice, clear picture of the rear of my car at the point where I was "observed" to be speeding. They might have included a map, even, of where I was. Just to jog my memory.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 9:44am
being mailed a ticket for speeding along with a nice, clear picture of the rear of my car at the point where I was "observed" to be speeding
There's been discussions about this traffic enforcement trend on Dagblog. One thing I find interesting about it is that it makes the auto's owner responsible, which is not necessarily the actual driver. Transfer that idea to guns: if you were held just as responsible for what your gun ended up doing in someone else's hands even though you weren't using it. (Think Nancy Lanza, for example, if her son Adam hadn't killed her.) I think the practice is ripe for court challenge. But I looked up what the actual story is behind this practice and it's private companies marketing the systems to local governments as an easy money maker, like parking tickets, and they keep the fees low enough and don't issue points or any other punishments (practically they can't give points, as they're not targeting drivers' licenses, but registrants) so that nobody bothers to challenge when it's someone else driving their car. In most cases, it would be a friend or relative the owner loaned the car to, so the owner is not going to challenge, but just get angry at their relative or friend. We are not talking negligence, or responsibility for damages,which has always been clear, but the owner being equally responsible for breaking traffic law by any driver of his automobile, as if he were driving it himself.
by artappraiser on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 1:40pm
Yes, this company Vigilant does just that and wanted to sell the system to DHS, I think. Or share the database.
So, if someone loaned me his car--probably a friend--I'd feel duty-bound to pay the ticket. I imagine among friends or relatives, it's easy to work this out.
As to guns, I guess there could be a court challenge, but ultimately what I mean is this: If you're going to own a gun, you are going to be held ultimately responsible for what happens with it, so be extra careful with how you handle, store, sell, and loan it.
So, if I loan my gun to someone and he murders someone else, he's charged with the murder, and I'm charged with negligence. Probably a big civil fine. And perhaps there's probationary period where I don't get to buy any more guns.
Something...and it has to be serious.
by Peter Schwartz on Tue, 02/25/2014 - 1:41pm
Response to PP above
The threat began with
I said that both the Jews and Blacks under Bull Connor's police force would have faced bullets if they mounted an armed rebellion. One post noted that the discussion was "Turtledovian backward-looking rewrites of history". It was speculation so hypothesizing what would happen if Bull Connor faced armed Blacks was fair game. I focused on what the immediate response to armed resistance would have been.
The original suggestion was that abuses would have been prevented if the human targets of abuses were armed. I replied in the negative. One post noted that the Resistance did not halt Hitler's troops. It was a theoretical discussion. You changed the discussion.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 02/28/2014 - 8:29am
You pick 1 sentence out of the thread - no, I didn't change the topic - I gave the example of the Warsaw Ghetto, for example, to show how far small arms could dent the Nazi machine - not theoretical at all. I didn't have the audacity to compare the actual Warsaw resistance or Kristalnacht where hundreds/thousands died with a what-if about an Alabama sheriff who used dogs but didn't quite shoot or kill anyone. Somehow I don't get how the latter fits into the framework of where guns are needed - the black protesters won without resorting to violence or escalating into a fight. In the former situations, Jewish victims and resisters lost - both with and without weapons, though with delayed the loss a few months.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 02/28/2014 - 9:52am
I don't buy the idea that folks in the region didn't believe Hitler could do such a thing to his own people. Back in the 30's folks around the world were warning others about Hitler.
I believe, had the Jews been armed, the resistance might have taken it right into the heart of Germany; as KGB wrote. Instead of American GI's with guns fighting Hitler.
It would have been German citizens fighting their own war, in the name of self defense.
The Jews knew they didn't have the modern day weaponry and what weaponry they did have, was probably confiscated.
So all they could do, was hope and pray the government would act civil.
Those about to board the trains were no doubt apprehensive; there homes and businesses taken; but what else could they do? They had no means to resist.
Lesson to be learned
Never trust the Governments to remain benevolent. Keep your means of resistance updated and close.
by Resistance on Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:16am
You have a number of historical examples how resistance against the Blitzkrieg and Kristalnacht and other invasions went. Find one where a few guns would have changed things significantly - whether Jews among 4 million brownshirts in Germany, or scared locals in Poland or France. The other issue you ignore was that in the Warsaw Ghetto, they knew the alternative was death in camps - in the 1930's the perceived choice was fight & likely die, or give in to suffer harassment/loss of jobs/other humiliation with the chance of emigrating. Anyway, read the history books, it's all there.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:45am
It was a made up situation of armed Jews confronting the Nazis.I posed another made up situation. Think Turtledove. Continue your made up argument about a made up scenario with yourself.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:20am
There is a compilation of videos at WASHINGTON'S BLOG. They all are promoting the Worldwide Wave of Action set to begin on Martin Luther Kings Day.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/03/worldwide-wave-action.html
I do not particularly recommend any of them except possibly the first one of two by Anonymous and then only if you have not paid any attention up until now and would like to hear what is being proposed. The last one is a pretty cool presentation though.
I went to YouTube for each one and noted the view count. That last one is described as "A new remixed music video featuring Eminem, Ice Cube, Korn and Anonymous aligning forces to set off the Worldwide Wave of Action". It has been viewed 168,732 times. The count for the others quickly drops to 20k then 15k then 5 videos that have not even been viewed 1 thousand times. I believe these are tiny numbers on YouTube compared to anything that has been said to go 'viral'. This is probably a fair indication that the movement has not yet gained any traction and that it might not do so at all.
Then again, you never can tell. Until you can tell. Whoever is pushing the idea got an early start. The kick off is in early Spring on a National Holiday which has some symbolic alignment with WWWOA's professed motives. If it was to turn into something it is about as far away as possible from the time that street action would get frozen out next winter.
The video which got the most hits was one which would, I think, appeal to the population segment most likely to hit the streets. When street demonstrations happen they often create an energy that draws a crowd. Then after that, nothing draws a crowd like a crowd. Summertime has its own dynamics and high unemployment among young people frees up more to join the crowd.
I expect that public display of committed energy would be a necessary part of any big movement but there are also individual actions suggested. Who can guess at the affect of possible cyber actions? I saw somewhere that there is surprise that no cyber attacks have happened in the Ukraine uprising.
Everything I have seen promoting the WWWOA stresses staying peaceful and legal. I sure hope it does if actions do develop. Thousands of peaceful protesters potentially having some affect are usually enough to make the authorities go nuts, and it only takes a couple nuts to incite violent trouble from either direction. I don't want to see those boys in blue, the segment of our population that everybody says should have guns, be tested by anything approaching the situation we have seen in the streets of Kiev. It will definitely be bad for business if that happens. And for some number of activists that is precisely the point, Just like it was the pint of Occupy.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 03/07/2014 - 2:30pm
If they get Miley Cyrus to sign on, they'll get the numbers. Short of that, it's 80 re-groove: good show, but no staying power. Gogol Bordello should of course play. And maybe a bit of Diamanda Galás to liven things up.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 03/07/2014 - 6:09pm