Elusive Trope's picture

    When Society is Insane

    A question was proposed on another thread regarding Elliot Rodger‘s murder spree: “Or should we just acknowledge that this was a case of a severe mental illness and leave it at that?”  I would say to that: “No.”   The reason is that even those who are severely mentally ill do not exist in a vacuum.  In most cases, they lived a life without the mental illness.  And even while the illness or syndrome or disorder (or whatever term one wishes to use) is active still are in most cases part of some cultural setting.  

    When I worked in mental health field primarily with schizophrenics, who were functional enough not to be in a state hospital, but not ready to be living independently, I noticed that for just about all of them, the majority of the voices in their head were members of their family or those who were or had  been very close to them.  

    We may not want to face the fact that those who exist on the extreme edges of what we deem sanity are even there a reflection of us, they are.  They are not non-human or, as I have blogged before, monsters.  

    Which brings me to another incident of murder, one that happened on the other side of the globe.  This victim in this case was a pregnant 25 year old Pakistani woman who was murdered by her family in what is deemed by some as “an honor killing.”

    A father or brother or uncle who stones (with bricks or whatever) his daughter (pregnant or not) to death is not considered insane according to our Western psychological viewpoint because he is acting within the bounds of his cultural values and paradigms.  As I was once taught, believing a tree can talk to you is not insane if your culture tells you trees can talk to you.

    One of the best articles I read on the matter was Broken Consciousness: The Pakistani Woman by Asad Rahim Khan for The Express Tribune which is done with the International New York Times.  He is lawyer based in Lahore, Pakistan.

    He writes:

    It’s not stoning to death. Not exactly, if we’re to follow the police’s line. A woman wasn’t stoned to death in broad daylight, by a mob of blood relations. She was beaten to death with bricks.

    In a sick society, the means of mutilation is all that’s in dispute. There are 10 different versions of this story, but what’s common in all of them is that a pregnant woman was murdered in the daytime, and a crowd gathered to watch.

    This is what falling apart at the seams sounds like.

    And later makes these remarks:

    And the inevitable editorials asking ‘how could this happen?’, or alternatively ‘what happened to us?’

    Nothing, if we were to concern ourselves with the truth. Soul-searching tends to fall by the wayside when one considers the relevant police officer’s answer: ‘It is a routine murder case like other murder cases, and has to be seen in the context of Pakistani society.’ In the context of Pakistani society, he said.

    The truth is, he’s absolutely right. If society is a set of norms, this set of norms is bent on breaking its women, then debasing them after the fact.
     

     

    But that doesn’t begin to touch on the justice system, which is why we’re here in the first place. Those numbed by Farzana Parveen’s public execution were once as stunned by the case of Safia Bibi, a blind girl raped by her employer and his son, bearing a child that would die in hospital. She was still in physical shock when the police lodged a case of fornication against her.

    A judge called Chaudhry Muhammad Aslam held Safia’s testimony inadmissible. He sentenced a blind 20-year-old girl to three years in prison and 15 lashes on the grounds that there wasn’t evidence she complained early enough. Horror followed, and the Federal Shariat Court dove in to acquit Safia. Her rapists walk free today.

    This should have been the watershed; when even the Pakistani male would realise this country was becoming no place for the girls he was raising. He didn’t, and we now desperately look to Farzana Parveen as the possible turning point.

    ....


    And yet neither the law nor the state is the tragedy in all this. We are. Because it was already clear that the social health and betterment of Pakistan’s women — this country’s one lifeline — isn’t on the agenda. But what’s clearer is how averse this land is becoming to such an agenda if it ever were.

    Pakistan’s founding was led by a woman, a polity that elected a woman as prime minister twice, and a society driven more by its mothers than its sons. Yet that same society, through years and years of tolerating what was done to its women, has brought us to this: a place that creates a Farzana Parveen every day.

    ....

    But though we see nothing, we speak the opposite: acid victims are prostitutes. Rape victims are black marks. Murdering your child is killing for honour. Even burying your daughter alive can pass for ‘centuries-old tradition’, according to Israrullah Zehri, a man who makes our laws.

    What’s frustrating is that solutions are everywhere: remaking murder a crime against the state, reforming the evidence collection system that allowed Mukhtaran Mai’s assailants to go free, repealing a host of malicious laws, and perhaps actually telling our children that generations are judged by the way they treat their women.

    The key part for me is when he clearly points the finger: "We are" the tragedy.  This is not meant take the responsibility off of someone like Rodger for his or her actions.  But it wasn't too long ago when in our own courts allowed how a woman was dressed to be considered relevant as to whether she was actually raped or was merely "asking for it." 

    Recently, I was watching ESPN in a bar when they played the video of Ravens football player Ray Rice pulling his then-fiancée (they are now married) unconscious body out of an elevator after he had punched  her in the head.  One of the two guys in front of me response: "She probably deserved it."  His friend agreed.

    Comments

    I consider The Sane Society by Erich Fromm one of the best books I ever read. It had a very beneficial effect psychologically and greatly influenced my worldview. Published in the mid-50s, some might find it dated but It thoroughly explores your subject  I think you would enjoy it. Excerpt:

     


    Thanks. The only Fromm I actually read, except for some quotes here and there, was To Have or To Be, which was very influential on my understanding of the self, and the relationship between self and the world.  I will definitely give my attention to your offering.


    Cultural relativity.

    Franz Boas, for chrissakes.

    Well the NAZIs and the Russian and Chinese communists kind of wrecked that idea along with Aztecs who sacrificed children and.....

    But the idea of cultural relativity survives.

    I mean what is is and what is not is not.

    Sometimes I just wish to let Texans (define that idea) do what Texans wish to do.

    I mean, if Texans wish to carry guns and ammos into bars, what the hell do I care?

    I do not wish Minnesotans to have the right to carry guns into bars.

    So some country wishes to cut off the baby girl's clitoris and make all grown women wear veils? What the hell does that have to do with me?

    We as human beings are all nuts? And we as human beings (all 7 billion) are supposedly individuals but most of us follow the dictates of our culture and cultural values.

    Truth?

    I do not know what the truth is anymore.

    I just looked at new visions provided by Hubble and ten thousand galaxies appear in one photo.

    If there are truly hundreds of billions of galaxies with hundreds of billions of stars and planets, and you decide to believe that the universe is six thousand years old, what do I care? 

    If people believe that slavery involved happy and contented workers in the cotton fields two hundred years ago, what the hell do I care? 

    Hell, slavery has been a condition of homo sapiens for thousands upon thousands of years.

    And someone who works in fast foods, at two different locations, at a minimum wage in order to provide for her two children? Is that no slavery?

    It is like when someone 'defines' psychopathy.

    Hell, I can take those definitions and apply them to so many politicians it would take three thousand pages and explain nothing.

    We are all mentally ill because there is no proper definition of mental health.

    Me? I will get by.



    We are all mentally ill because there is no proper definition of mental health.

    I get the point you make about who gets to say who is what. There are divisions of diagnosis and classifications.

    There are a lot people suffering their own thing without anybody around to give it a name. One doesn't have to have a theory of everything to recognize a problem. It is a similar problem for each person living it whatever you call it.

    So maybe it is not a matter of a lack of a proper definition of abnormality but having entire fields of human endeavor based upon an idea of a good that we are not, as yet, equipped to talk about.


    This is really well said Moat.

    No kidding.

    I really do not know if, we as a species can get better.

    But we should try!

    Good point!


    In any society, whether one of today or 2000 years ago) we are stuck with bureaucracy and its institutions, and they need some kind of form of standardization in order to function.  In the case of mental health we get the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (or DSM) to create the little boxes into which we can be placed to determine whether we are mentally ill.

    As it states on wiki: published by the American Psychiatric Association, [the DSM] offers a common language and standard criteria for the classification of mental disorders. It is used, or relied upon, by clinicians, researchers, psychiatric drug regulation agencies, health insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, the legal system, and policy makers.  Currently the DSM is in fifth edition, as new disorders are accepted and others (like homosexuality) are deemed no longer a mental illness.  Which is one of the critical facets of something like the DSM, that it doesn't become carved in stone, so to speak, and evolves as our understanding of what is and isn't abnormality changes.

    And it isn't so much, most of the time, about normal vs. abnormal* as much as is the experience of this or that so severe that it is interfering with an individual's ability to function, to carry out the daily demands that life throws at us. 

    For instance, I have (among other things) what is known officially as Generalized Anxiety Disorder. Everyone experiences anxiety.  You wouldn't be human if you didn't.  And there are times when just about everyone gets what one might deem overly anxious, or too anxious for the given situation.  But when this anxiousness becomes so pervasive, so intense, that it begins to undermine an individual's ability to function, to go to sleep every night, to carry out the duties of one's job, that some kind of intervention is necessary.

    (of course, there is much debate about what is the best kind of intervention, and although myself am using pharmaceuticals, I agree with those who say that we have become to quick to pop the pill in order to "fix" ourselves, and a host of other issues related to the pharma industry)

    having entire fields of human endeavor based upon an idea of a good that we are not, as yet, equipped to talk about.

    But there is I think much in this last statement I agree with.  And one the key reasons we are not "equipped to about" it yet is to even broach the subject means critiquing the very set-up of our society - the daily grind of work and family and social obligations.  We can't bring everything to a halt while we ponder and reflect as a people, a nation, or society, and so we keep pushing on, fighting what we believe is the good fight (and that we use a violent analogy so often might give us a clue to what is wrong). 

    Continuing the discourse about what may be that good, and, just importantly, and maybe more difficult to achieve, how to translate that idea to the actual lives of the person who works in the cubicle, or at two or three minimum wage jobs so that he or she can keep a roof over the family's head and food in cupboard (not to mention pay those medical bills, etc).


    I agree that the DSM is an important lexicon of malady (and the fact that it is mutable is one of its virtues).

    In the context of my response to Richard's assertion regarding the relativity of definitions, I was trying to say that what causes suffering is real no matter how well it is understood or not, or how different cultures talk about what is healthy. The idea of the human being is absolute but we have to manage life with a dialectic of models and decisions made using them. No one rides free.

    I recognize that my position is the opposite of any kind of cultural relativity that would suggest that there all kinds of "good" out there. There is only one good.

    The position does suggest that there are good and bad things about each model. Navigating the differences is not a simple thing. Your point about how deeply we are invested in the scene we show up is just one of the things that confound simplicity.


    The concept of cultural relativism and its impact on views of cultures is complex, especially as it became mixed with the ideas of moral relativism, anti-colonialism, the push for the values of diversity and inclusion within Western societies that had once seen itself as superior to other nations, cultures, and countries. 

    The idea that one must understand what is seen as an honor killing does not at the same time oblige me to condone the practice on moral / ethical grounds. 

    And it is easy to fall into a kind of "why should I care" apathy and cynicism when there is so much "insanity" around us.  But we should care. The hard part is caring when one seems powerless to make a difference. 

    I guess the best way I get through is to think of six degrees of separation: the theory that everyone and everything is six or fewer steps away, by way of introduction, from any other person in the world, so that a chain of "a friend of a friend" statements can be made to connect any two people in a maximum of six steps.


    I am just down.

    I'm goin down, down, down, down....

    I gave up on cultural relativism a long, long time ago. hahahahah

    I cannot help myself, I cry for those who are enslaved all the time.

    I just feel that I cannot do a damn thing about it!

    We have 20(?) states that will not allow ACA? Out of spite?

    Hell, that appears to me to be a cultural rather than a 'factual' issue?

    I get lost!

    Good post by the by. 

    Fun to see Moat show up and for you to post.

    It is extremely important to me!

    the end



    Have faith Richard,

    We here in Florida is going to take care of not having ACA.  Best political commercial in a long time. Rick Scott is going down.



    hhahaahahahah

    So Skeletor is goin down, down down. hahahah

    You get to me Momo. no kidding. hahahahah

    I sure the hell hope you are RIGHT!

    hahahahahh

    I dunno, you always make me laugh.

    Thank you!


    I thought you would like that one.  We are all imperfect and have our demons.  Unfortunately my demons have to get in line with the rest of the shit and wait until I have time for them.  Some how I get through it all.  The sun come up and the sun goes down, in between I fly by the seat of my pants.  I am stuck on the dark side making cookies. 


    Wow!  I just LOVE that!  It should be used for dozens of other knuckle-draggers, including Scott Walker, McConnel, and so many others. thanks for bringing it here. 


    OT.  I don't want to highjack the thread.  Florida DP had another one they ran last winter at the same time with this one that was good.  "Scott missing in action" that had Willy Nelson singing in the background "On the road again."  It was a real eye catcher also.  It was about Scott flying around outside of the state in his private plane.  They started about a year ago with some really good ads. They are hammering away at the GOP and at the same time with a high energy up beat to them. It is showing in the poll numbers and Crist isn't even on the air yet with his ads.   


    Don't worry about highjacking the thread.


    If you must go down, you might as well get down.

     

    If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all.


    I just played this incredible tape at 4pm and again.

    Wonderful.

    I saw it there and I waited.

    It is more than:

    YOU GO YOUR WAY AND I'LL GO MINE.

    Cheney gets to live to be 100? and 

    ONLY THE GOOD DIE YOUNG.

    hahahah

    I have no idea why I aint dead and why my mama lived to be 87.

    There is no justice in the world.

    JUST US!


    Well, either all cultures are morally equivalent, or they are not.  Thanks to the Judeo-Christian tradition, we've been raised with the idea that our values are superior/morally enlightened/better-in-some-way than those of the "savages", and that it is our duty to show them the light.  But moral equivalence would say that we are incorrect, that a society that executes pregnant rape victims is just as worthy as ours.

    Is this a left-right divide?

    If you believe in moral equivalence, that would justify support for unlimited immigration.


    First I would say that all cultures and sub-cultures are not to be wholly judged based on one or two facets of its traditions (or historical actions).  Moreover, there are facets of a culture that has both positive and negative qualities - take our focus on individualism which can facilitate great bursts of creativity and ingenuity, but also lead to self-centeredness of depravity such as those seen on Wall Street or heard on that infamous tape of Enron employees ripping off 'grandma.' 

    One of the most pervasive facet of cultures and sub-cultures across the globe is the dominance of patriarchic views and paradigms. Dealing with it in this country, as it is seen in nearly every sub-culture, is difficult enough, but needs to be dealt with across the globe. It isn't going to be something fixed overnight, especially because it is interwoven into so many of the practices and beliefs of (sub)cultures.  Tearing down this one facet can appear as an attack on the whole culture, this is particular threatening when the culture includes a particular religion, whether it be Christian or Islam or whatever. 

    This is not about ranking this culture as more worthy than another culture.  It is about values and morals, and having the courage to stand up for them, and understanding that context does sometimes have to be considered, but it doesn't always mean one looks the other way. I believe that what happened to that woman in Pakistan was murder.  But I also believe in Battered Wife Syndrome as legitimate defense in some cases.

    This is not a right-left issue.

    And even if I did believe in moral equivalence, I don't see how that would logically lead to the policy stance of unlimited immigration.

     


    I think Lurker wins on points.

    "It is about values and morals, and having the courage to stand up for them, and understanding that context does sometimes have to be considered, but it doesn't always mean one looks the other way." This is pretty wishy-washy. So we respect other cultures until we don't? Lately we've been occupying a good amount of the Muslim world while saying we somehow respect them. While there's a lot of intolerance towards gays in the US, the US has pretty well led on LGBT issues globally. I'm pretty well unwilling to compare stealing from grandma with gang rape and murder in India - they're different levels of heinous to me.

    If the goon squad hadn't been so cruel and nasty and braindead stupid in its superiority the last dozen years, we might have been able to declare ourselves a bit more superior.

    But I do think it's worth at least thinking about what the cultural predilections are for people who wash up on our shore. Or else we appreciate cannibalism as just another cultural perspective?


    The idea I'm pushing back on is that one has to claim superiority in order to denounce something like cannibalism.  One can I suppose go down a list and do some comparison and contrast and say "well, the bottom line is that we have more pros than cons than this other culture" and then go running around with the big #1 foam finger.

    Nor was equating on heinous scale the conscious manipulation of the energy market to murder, which is why in our court of law there are different sentences to different acts of immorality (crimes) so deemed by our society, as well as recognizing different kinds of murder (such as crime of passion, etc.) The point was to bring up the question really: how is that our culture can "produce" so many folk who are willing (and sometimes gleefully so) to make other suffer in order to make more  money when they already make more than most people do?

    And just for the record, on the LGBT front (via Wiki), ten European countries legally recognize same-sex marriage, namely Belgium, Denmark, France, Iceland, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom. An additional thirteen countries have a form of civil union or unregistered cohabitation, as do four dependent territories. Can't say that about the US of A.  Which is not say there are those within those countries who disagree, nor that all is perfect over across the pond.

     


    The idea I'm pushing back on is that one has to claim superiority in order to denounce something like cannibalism.

    Especially as the claim is often enforced at the point of a gun designed, in some perverse way, to elevate the backward society to the level of the enforcing society.

    The difficulty is not just between societies, one claiming to be superior to the other, but within societies. A social consensus about a practice that was once considered normal or abnormal reverses, or starts to reverse, and is increasingly not tolerated (or tolerated)--but why and how does this change occur?

    One wants to say that standards of morality somehow lie outside the norms of society. A board doesn't measure itself: You need a measuring tape to determine how long it is.

    Somehow, though, it seems that societies pull themselves up by their own moral bootstraps, perhaps by a genetically or evolutionarily inherent, yet evolving, moral sense. Someone has to be the first to say that slavery is wrong.

    Even when contact with a different society is the catalyst for change, something has to be triggered within the changing society that says, "This practice was once acceptable, but we now see that it's wrong and we should move away from it."

    A social conscience whose origins are...?


    "...on the LGBT front (via Wiki), ten European countries legally recognize same-sex marriage... Can't say that about the US of A."  Misleading - the US has a federal system.

    Massachusetts, with a population bigger than Denmark, would have been the 3rd "country" to legalize in 2003 (though beaten by 3 Canadian provinces). California with a population of 38 million joined in 2008, though was delayed 5 years due to legal challenges

    As of today, 20 US states + DC with gay marriage comprise 143 million people, or 45% of the US.

    7 other states have rulings approving gay marriage but are awaiting final legal resolution. 2 states, Nevada and Colorado, allow gay unions significantly similar to marriage.

    The UK law of which you speak doesn't apply in Northern Ireland or Scotland, though a Scottish law will take effect later this year.

     


    While we are a de facto federal system (and it was generally the court system rather than popular votes from the people that legalized it at the state level), Congress and the what happens at the federal level is sometimes a reflection of the nation as whole - not exactly leading the way, and again it took the courts to step into to save the day:

    The Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) …is a United States federal law that allows states to refuse to recognize same-sex marriages granted under the laws of other states. Until Section 3 of the Act was ruled unconstitutional in 2013, DOMA, in conjunction with other statutes, had barred same-sex married couples from being recognized as "spouses" for purposes of federal laws, effectively barring them from receiving federal marriage benefits. DOMA's passage did not prevent individual states from recognizing same-sex marriage, but it imposed constraints on the benefits received by all legally married same-sex couples.

    Initially introduced in May 1996, DOMA passed both houses of Congress by large, veto-proof majorities and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton in September 1996. By defining "spouse" and its related terms to signify a heterosexual couple in a recognized marriage, Section 3 codified non-recognition of same-sex marriages for all federal purposes, including insurance benefits for government employees, social security survivors' benefits, immigration, bankruptcy, and the filing of joint tax returns, as well as excluding same-sex spouses from the scope of laws protecting families of federal officers (18 U. S. C. §115), laws evaluating financial aid eligibility, and federal ethics laws applicable to opposite-sex spouses.[1]:23–24

    Clinton – along with key legislators – later advocated for DOMA's repeal. The Obama administration announced in 2011 that it had concluded Section 3 was unconstitutional and that although the administration would continue to enforce the law while it existed, it would no longer defend the law in court. In United States v. Windsor (2013), the U.S. Supreme Court declared Section 3 of DOMA unconstitutional under the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment.

     


    Whatever - states with 145 million+. Blame it on Santa Claus if you want. And whatever Congress did, it was going to end in the courts - again, how the US system works - note ObamaCare etc.


    Actually I would "blame" it on Europeans more secular on the whole than those in the United States.  I am not trying to diminish the advancements for the LGTB agenda in this country, but we do have to recognize that in many places, including those places where gay marriage is recognized as legal, there are many who resist the idea.  I believe we are progressing forward, such as the end of don't ask don't tell, etc.  And just as race was less of an issue in the presidential race among the younger voters (and not just the twenty somethings, but thirty somethings, and forty somethings), the same goes with the issue of sexual orientation.

    As I commented to Orion down at the bottom of the thread, I would argue that we are becoming more sane not just here but elsewhere in some broad overall way, in spite of the horrors we see on the television and internet.

    Maybe really what I wanted to do with this blog was to point out that the murder spree committed by Rodger can be a learning moment, if we don't just see him as some insane person who in no way reflects some of the "insanity" which is our culture.  


    This gets a little murky. Some Muslims believe in honor deaths and beating women to death with bricks. Some evangelical Christians born and bread in the United States have traveled to places like Uganda and Russia carrying a message that has led some Ugandans to believe that is okay to sentence homosexuals to death or imprisonment. Russians are led to physically assault homosexuals. 

    Thus some who feel the duty to enlighten the heathens are monsters who hide behind Christianity. Christian Identity was a part of the rationale of Timothy McVeigh. Dr. Tiller was killed in church by a person who felt they were carrying out a religious quest. Christians in the United States supported enslavement, first of native Indians and then imported Africans. The enslavement tactics used by the enlightened freedom fighters was identical to that practiced by the heathens.

    As we see present day legislatures rushing to restrict voting; Unions crushed by legislative acts; legislatures restricting women's abilities to control their own bodies; and people feeling the need to show up with assault weapons at restaurants as well to intimidate meetings being held to address concerns about gun laws, there is concern about the heathens that exist in our own country. We see a racist tax-dodger supported by many in the country. The tax-dodger attracted a mixed bag of nuts ready to confront law enforcement by placing women and children at the front lines. We believe that our country is great, but we see the seeds of the evil you point out in the lands of the heathens right here in the United States.


    "...that has led some Ugandans to believe that is okay to sentence homosexuals to death or imprisonment" - wow, those backwards Africans. 

    2003
    The U.S. Supreme Court rules in Lawrence v. Texas that sodomy laws in the U.S. are unconstitutional.
    1973
    The American Psychiatric Association removes homosexuality from its official list of mental disorders.
    1962
    Illinois becomes the first state in the U.S. to decriminalize homosexual acts between consenting adults in private.

    I think he made it pretty clear it was Christians from the Western nations that brought the idea to them.  We all can agree that every (sub)culture or nation  or state are living in the same glass house and none of us should be throwing stones in some broad generalization as to who is superior. 

    With that said, one can also point at states which enact policies or (sub)cultures which hold practices that are against one's values and sense of morals and ethics, even though  we all from time to time as individuals do not act perfectly. 


    Damn US Christians - otherwise Ugandans would have accepted homosexuality, right?

    2003- Outgoing Archbishop of the Church of Uganda, Livingstone Mpalanyi Nkoyoyo has reiterated his stern position on homosexuality, saying gays have no room in the Anglican Church.

    He asked Ugandans to pray for Christians in the United States of America whom he called immoral.


    I did specify "Western" not "U.S." - the Catholic Church, based out Rome, which is Italy, is an institution which was primarily developed within the Western framework, in spite of the fact that Jesus came from the Middle East.  And for the record, I am not one of those who say that the Western view of world, and the Western countries, or those who base their form of government on Western models (which is pretty much every state on the globe) are the sole reason there is bad things happening in the world.


    Many of the countries where harsh Sodomy laws persist were colonies under British rule. A law that started in India was applied to other colonies.

    http://m.hrw.org/news/2008/12/17/sodomy-laws-show-survival-colonial-inju...

    Evil people will take advantage of whatever device is available to do evil things. In some cases religion is the instrument used as a cover to do evil. In other cases, patriotism or tribalism is the trigger.


    by placing...children at the front lines

    One then has to wonder how do these children internalize this experience.  Later as adults, when we as society no longer see them as victims, but responsible for their actions, to what extent can one point back to those moments on the "front lines" as some reason why they acted in a way that society deems is worth punishing.


    Robert Coles, Harvard psychiatrist has done tremendous work on the lives of children. One book "The Moral Lives of  Children'' focuses on how children take the cues for what is moral from their parents or other adults around them. "Problem" children are a reflection on environment.

     

    Edited to add the name Robert Coles who in the Fifties studies impact of poverty on Southern Black and Appalachian White children in "Children of Crisis",  still a classic.


    I'm not fond of the way you frame this issue. It seems to me that discussing whether a society is insane adds a level of complexity without adding clarity.

    One can admire the cultural artifacts of a society, the arts, music, fashion, ect. without admiring the politics or the constraints that underlie interpersonal relationships. Some societies are more brutal, less free, have less justice than others. At some point we can call those societies insane if we want.

    I, and anyone who thinks about it, can envision a better society than exists anywhere today. Great writers of the past envisioned changes  that have become the normal today. As I see it using empathy and higher order moral concepts we should envision the best society we can and than pragmatically work toward actualizing it.

    Among some animals the dominate males use force to gather harems of females. Are horses insane? Sometimes new dominate males will kill the juvenile off spring of previous dominate males. Are lions insane? I have no doubt both of those reproductive strategies were used by homo sapiens often during our 100 to 200 thousand year history. In some societies they are still used today. Jumping forward at one time spousal rape was not a crime nor was domestic abuse. As homo sapiens become more empathetic and moral we decided that wife beating was only acceptable using a stick as wide as your thumb. Insane?

    I'm much more concerned with bringing clarity to issues and moving societies forward. I'm not sure how it helps to use psychological terminology rather than philosophical terminology to  bring clarity to the issues or to move societies forward.


    I'm not sure how it helps to use psychological terminology rather than philosophical terminology to  bring clarity to the issues or to move societies forward.

    I'm not sure either.


    Part of the point of the blog was to compare the murders of Rodger, which everyone is in one way or another, placing label "insane" with the murder conducted by a father and other family members which as Asad Rahim Khan points out from the perspective of some as voiced by a police officer: ‘It is a routine murder case like other murder cases, and has to be seen in the context of Pakistani society.’ In the context of Pakistani society, he said. [Asad had italicized the last line which I forgot to do when I pasted it into the blog.] 

    I have made the case before, like the Newtown shootings, the individuals who commit such acts do so within a set of logical boundaries that make sense to them, but which to some degree are reflection of the society in which they are accultured.  Why are the father and brother and other extended family who murdered this pregnant woman not considered insane as well?  Because we take the context of the culture into consideration? But should then the society itself be considered insane?

    I'm not saying I have the answer to this.  But as Asad Rahim Khan also states:

    The truth is, [the police man is] absolutely right. If society is a set of norms, this set of norms is bent on breaking its women, then debasing them after the fact.

    He also goes on to say [emphasis mine]:

    And yet neither the law nor the state is the tragedy in all this. We are. Because it was already clear that the social health and betterment of Pakistan’s women — this country’s one lifeline — isn’t on the agenda. But what’s clearer is how averse this land is becoming to such an agenda if it ever were.

    Whether it is attempting to understand and thus help individuals like Rodger or working with societies making a transition from traditional patriarchic views to one which views women on equal footing with those of men, we are dealing with psychological issues, which blend into the philosophical, the sociological, the political, and whatever other discipline of thought one wants to apply to human change.

    It is no different than going into town that had for generations made its living through logging, or steel manufacturing or coal mining, and moving them toward something different than they had been prepared for, indoctrinated into all their life, from the moment they were born. 

     


    It is no different than going into town that had for generations made its living through logging, or steel manufacturing or coal mining

    I don't see any similarity. Those in the rust belt etc. don't need any psychological help. What they need is jobs. If Ohio had hundreds of square miles of old growth forests where logging had been banned for a hundred years I don't think the vast majority of steel workers would be complaining about have to switch from earning $25 per hour making steel to earning $25 per hour cutting down trees. Coal miners wouldn't need psychological help to deal with the loss of their tradition of coal mining if there were jobs making fusion clean energy devices. What society is telling people is that their $25 per hour jobs are gone and most of them will be unemployed. Except for the few who get to flip burgers for $7.25. I don't think psychology has advanced to the point where one can find a way to tell people that without them becoming bitter and angry.

    ER was suicidal first and foremost. Nothing in his life was working. He had no interests that he wanted to spend his life on. No interests to expand on to earn a living, even WOW was nothing more than unsatisfying time sink. He had no desire to support himself with meaningful or meaningless work. His mental illness had led him to  a place where he felt he had no options but death and decided to take some people with him. He chose women and the men with them, even though no women had actually rejected him. Suicide can be a rational sane choice but ER was delusional. He wasn't seeking rewards but escape. Certainly he was misogynist and likely his mental illness was colored by a misogynistic culture but imo his over riding characteristic was mental illness.

    Lack of empathy may be considered a mental illness but when its so common its hard for me to see it that way. Look at societies that oppressive women and remove empathy from the equation, then ask who benefits. If I could buy a robot that would cook and clean for me and obey all my commands, I'd buy it. Again take empathy from the equation and why shouldn't men create a society that condemns women to a kind of slavery?  Is it insane to seek benefits at the cost of others? How does psychology answer that question?

    It seems to me that philosophy and ethics answers questions like: what is freedom, justice, equality and why should we value and seek to actualize them, better than psychology does. How does deciding that societies that lack those values to some certain degree are insane help?

    In the end I think we must do something similar to what those who seek benefits from the oppression of others have done. Gather sufficient numbers of people with sufficient power to force change in our society. Fortunately those changes can often be made non violently. Although sometimes, like other animals, we have to kill all the bullies.

     


    I was there when the training programs came in to the Northwest logging communities to help loggers learn new skills so they could find new jobs.  Many of them resisted being retrained for a new job because logging was all they knew, but also because their daddy was logger, their granddaddy was logger, their brother, neighbor, best friend, etc were loggers. An entire small culture was being wiped out and there was in a sense of grief and anger over that loss.  Taking some philosophical approach, as you put it, about what is justice isn't going to help the person trying to get this one guy to let go of the fact he wasn't going to make his living - the primary source of identity (unfortunately) - through logging.  

    In Indiana isn't just going from the $25 an hour job in the factory to flipping burgers that is being dealt with, it is also that the new manufacturing jobs that are coming in for those with just a high school diploma are maybe $14 or $15 an hour with fewer if any other benefits.  Again there is grief and anger, not just for those workers, but the whole community, as a way of life that they knew was gone and, more importantly, never coming back.  Adjusting to the new normal is nothing but a psychological process, not only for the individual, but also for the community.

    Camus said:

    • There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest...comes afterward. These are games; one must first answer.

    Somehow you think you can deal with issues like ethics in some rarified world away from the messy world of the human mind (or mind/body).  Freedom, justice, and equality can be defined and pondered from one's arm chair, but if one is going to go into communities, deal with real people in neighborhoods, whether here in the States or in some remote back country of Pakistan, one must deal with the psychological nature of belief systems. 

    There is a point where the murderers who took the life of a 25 year old woman and her unborn child where one does have to face that they were acting in their psychological world to maintain the honor of their family.  Addressing that, with these people in real time, getting them to open up to new realities of seeing the world which will at first appear threatening to their entire belief system, which includes their understanding of religion, God, and their own salvation, is nothing but psychological.

    I also believe that empathy is a part of the biological facet of being human, one that developed over time through the evolutionary unfolding a species that depended on the other for survival, whether it was the long period of infancy in which the child could not protect itself from the elements, to the small groupings of individuals, who depended on each other to survive.  But I also believe empathy is at the very least reinforced or if not an almost inherent emergent feature of abstract thought (that allows us to philosophize) - we just call it enlightened self-interest to make those not in touch with their feelings better able to accept.  For me to be able to imagine the other's pain as my pain, to look back on the consequences and project the consequences of my actions into the future, a product of our abstract brain, tends to force one to come to grips with the impact on other lives, lives just like ours. 

    That is why we spend such a great deal of time de-humanizing the enemy during times of conflict.  A study done by the Army in WWII found that they were able to get more soldiers to actually fire their guns at the enemy when they shifted the basic training from "kill the enemy" to "protect your buddy."


    "Although sometimes, like other animals, we have to kill all the bullies."

    Is that really the lesson to take from that NYT Learning Network Teacher Connection story?

    It is an interesting story but should it really be used to teach moral or social value lessons to K12 students? Certainly not without more corroboration of the findings from other studies and/or longer-term duration of the supposed cultural change. As the story ended:

    Dr. Sapolsky has no idea how long the good times will last. "I confess I'm rooting for the troop to stay like this forever, but I worry about how vulnerable they may be," he said. "All it would take is two or three jerky adolescent males entering at the same time to tilt the balance and destroy the culture."

    And all it takes to turn peaceful co-existers into competitive jerks is economic scarcity whether from natural catastrophe or simply overpopulation.

     


    Throw Maslow's hierarchy of needs along with Andrew Schmookler's take on the Parable of the Tribes:

    Imagine a group of tribes living within reach of one another. If all choose the way of peace, then all may live in peace. But what if all but one choose peace, and that one is ambitious for expansion and conquest? What can happen to the others when confronted by an ambitious and potent neighbor? Perhaps one tribe is attacked and defeated, its people destroyed and its lands seized for the use of the victors. Another is defeated, but this one is not exterminated; rather, it is subjugated and transformed to serve the conqueror. A third seeking to avoid such disaster flees from the area into some inaccessible (and undesirable) place, and its former homeland becomes part of the growing empire of the power-seeking tribe. Let us suppose that others observing these developments decide to defend themselves in order to preserve themselves and their autonomy. But the irony is that successful defense against a power-maximizing aggressor requires a society to become more like the society that threatens it. Power can be stopped only by power, and if the threatening society has discovered ways to magnify its power through innovations in organization or technology (or whatever), the defensive society will have to transform itself into something more like its foe in order to resist the external force.

    To use one of the current crises facing this country: One doesn't have to become like the terrorists to defeat terrorists, nor give up all our civil liberties in order to defend ourselves, but there is definitely a transformation that does have to occur to address external as well as internal threats. Sometimes it can be something as simple and peaceful as law enforcement agencies and departments cooperating and coordinating better!


    Jon Bon Jovi had the largest global tour attendance of any music act this past year - is this the kind of bland emasculated society we want going forward? All hail the stage divers and incisors - occasionally you have to pay your pound of flesh for success.


    So you would prefer some band like Slayer leading the cultural way forward?

    Slayer-02.Jpg


    Well, hopefully evolved a bit since then, but like, yeah.


    Maybe you should look at why Jon Bon Jovi threatens your sense of what it means to be a man so much.  I'm not saying he should be the primary model for the modern male (nor his music be the standard by which all music is judged), but part of the problem with the modern man has been his inability to integrate the anima into his conscious ego (how's that for some psychology). 


    Well I'm just a modern guy. And I've been known to have it in the ear before. With a lust for life. Eat or be eaten.


    I would not recognize Jon Bon Jovi if he was standing in front of me or any of his music so basically I have no idea what the hell you are saying.

     


    It's Niwdog's Law - any internet discussion that devolves into discussing Bon Jovi has ceased to be relevant to anything.


    Another tragedy has happen.  I wonder how many will copy this.  

    I just fired off emails to my state senators and reps. I suggest all of you do the same. Let them know you expect them to pass gun regulations.  I gave Rubio hell. 


    Many good thought provocations here, thanks for taking the time to share what you were thinking.

    If I could suggest, awkwardly perhaps, because I haven't firmed up my own thoughts,where it falls apart for me.

    Cultural relativism comes out of tolerance. Tolerance is damn important to civilization. Not love, not anything passionate, but tolerance.

    Pakistan's main cultural problem is being founded on intolerance. Though having oodles of intolerance in its history, at least the founders of the U.S. were really thinking: let's try tolerance, it could work, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, including hate speech, etc.. We should be proud of that. I think that is something that can be lauded as a highlight that is, yes, better than many other cultures. Forgive me the Godwin's law problemo, but, you know, it's like this: Hilter's Germany or Pol Pot's Cambodia = intolerance at the core. Israel/Palestine currently? Intolerance.

    I would feel safe claiming that there are few NRA members, or even misogynists, lauding Rodger's actions owing to imagined passionate grievance; they were kind of honor killings in a way. While there are undoubtedly a loud minority in Pakistan defending honor killings, not to mention politicians making excuses for those that do. Honor over tolerance = not a good thing! Unless you're a Nazi, that is.

    <yay, Godwin's Law! devil>

    P.S. Try this for more thought provocation:

    Tolerance by E. M. Forster (i.e., what is civilization? inspired by a calamitous world war.)


    This is nice!

    I mean it is a perfect comment for where I am right now, mentally!

    I just would remind you that it is not easy reading green. hahahah



    First, just to be clear, I am not trying to make the case for cultural relativism.  Which is different than saying, since they are composed of humans, and humans being human, operate and unfold within the same dynamics and boundaries.

    Tolerance is interesting way into looking into the issue, one I will have to ponder along with some other reading material offered. 

    The term does remind me of a monologue given by Louis in Angels in America (which was taken out of the HBO version unfortunately) in which he says to Belize:

    ...what I think is that what AIDS shows us is the limits of tolerance, that it's not enough to be tolerated, because when shit hits the fan you find out how much tolerance is worth. Nothing. And underneath all the tolerance is intense, passionate hatred.

    I don't know if agree with Louis, but it does bring up the important point of there being a difference between tolerance and acceptance.  Even if Louis is right, we have to start somewhere, and it is unrealistic to expect people to go straight from distrust, not to mention hatred, to (loving) acceptance.


    In an attempt to help clarify what I was driving at with this blog by bring Rodger into a comparison with the murder of the woman in Pakistan, is quote from James Hollis, a Jungian therapist:

    Of all the ideologies that possess the contemporary [psyche], perhaps none is more powerful, more seductive, and possibly more delusory than the romantic fantasy that there is someone out there who is right for us, the long-sought soul-mate, what I call “the magical other,” the one who will truly understand us, take care of us, meet our needs, repair the wounds, and, with a little luck, spare us the burden of growing up and meeting our own needs.

    While Rodger clearly had 'gone off the deep end' and was more than just a little insane, in his rantings he had clearly had internalized much of what our culture has offered him, not only a pathological misogyny, but also this romantic fantasy about the magical other who failed to materialized without any effort on his part. 

    Our attempts to distance ourselves from him, to just call him a lunatic and leave it as that maybe (and I emphasize maybe) being driven in part because we don't want to have to look at ourselves in an honest way, to see our own neuroses as individuals and as a culture that we support through our reiterations every day.


    The most disturbing possibility is that the world is as sane or even saner than it was before but the level of information we have makes us see things in high definition when we only had the grainy VHS version of reality before.


    It is possible to say that overall, our world has become more sane when compared with the past, in fact I would say that it is more likely it is. The sad fact is, like the individual, usually it takes great suffering (hitting the proverbial rock bottom) for societies to look at themselves and make improvements. Hitler, WWII and what the concentration camps represented was one such moment.  And it is true that today we get to see what is happening in places where old traditional values, like "honor killings," have been happening for long, long time.  

    But if it is the case that we are overall becoming more sane than say 50 years ago, then that is something which should provide some sense of hope that with continued work, while the suffering continues, there can be a moving of the needle.


    The sad fact is, like the individual, usually it takes great suffering (hitting the proverbial rock bottom) for societies to look at themselves and make improvements. Hitler, WWII and what the concentration camps represented was one such moment.

    I think this is very true. Europeans are reluctant as hell to get involved in any military conflicts and looking at World War II is a good reason why. It took that extreme to make them pacifist - they had been doing the constant war thing for centuries and the horrors were worse than anything ever seen in this country.

    It's taking this extreme for us to really reconsider the Second Amendment, which has stood for two centuries. Even if it still stands, it has taken more hits than I think it ever has in recent years.


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