It is political in a different sense. So many of the Obama worshipers believe in postpartisanship. They extol Obama for being pragmatic and non-ideological.

Ideology matters. The rule of law is founded on an ideological belief system. If you don't believe in anything, if you are totally pragmatic, you are totally expedient. Your immediate end justifies any means. I can't think of a better example of how this plays out than in torture. You must believe in something larger and longer than your immediate end in order to understand why torture is self-defeating.

Obama seems to be intimidated by both.

Apparently Rahm said today that nobody is going to be held accountable for anything.

Of course what that does is undermine every public servant at a lower level who would like to do the right thing and who might have the courage to do the right thing inspite of orders from their superiors because now all of these public servants in the government and in the military know that the one thing that is never going to happen come Democrat, come Republican, is accountability at the top.

Now the underlings know that they better do what they're told and shut up. It's the Good German model of government ratified and affirmed by Rahm today on behalf of the Obama administration.

Oops left out 'needs' after 'movement'.

We have to appeal to Congress and every power abroad to bring pressure to bear!

I was in a rush and made an error. Shit happens. C'est la vie. I think you might have understood anyway. I hope you feel appropriately smug and superior after making your point.

Ok, now I'm ready to go on the warpath:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cvp-7YOtRI&feature=player_embedded

If this is Obama's position, and it's not changing, then the bottom-line issue for me, the Rule of Law, has been betrayed.

Time of reflection? I've had 8 years to reflect!

I'm ready to roll! This is not retribution. It's Justice before the law.

He was doing nothing but referring back to Obama. I just put the link in below in a comment.

Yup! Now I am outraged! This was my total concern in this election! Rule of Law. That has to come first. And if it's not first for Obama, I am sick at heart. I feel betrayed for sure!

I totally agree, oleeb. There is no wiggle-room in the law! NONE!

I understand. As I said, it's a pet peeve.

This really comes down to Obama not being all that different from Bush. Bush lied like hell and now we find that, even though he said otherwise, Obama doesn't have any more respect for this country or our laws or the people of this nation than Bush. The rot in Washington is complete. When the crazies on both the left and right start shooting at least we'll know the reason.

same hi, message, etc. for me

... and don't forget those who enabled those who manufactured the supposed legal basis for torture- Bush/Cheney.

I think the choice has pretty clearly been made. Obama will obstruct any effort to investigate and/or prosecute anyone involved. People keep wanting to believe that he is keeping a window open to go after the higher ups and that most certainly is not the case. In fact, when he was in Mexico last week he gave an interview to a spanish language tv network where he made that clear.

Thank you for the lesson. I do appreciate it.

Playing devil's advocate here for a minute....

What you're all asking for is for a sitting presidential administration to prosecute the former administration for crimes it may have committed.

Yes, in this case there may be some very clear-cut violations. But you're still setting a dangerous precedent by prosecuting a previous administration for actions it took in good faith to preserve the safety of the American people.

Yeah, it was wrong. Someone should be held accountable. But are you seriously considering bringing criminal charges against a former POTUS for actions he took in defense of the country? This isn't Nixonesque corruption...this was a good faith effort. They thought what they were doing was necessary. They thought 9/11 changed the rules. They were wrong, but to blindly prosecute them opens up the door for every new president to throw the book at the one before.

This stinks to high heaven, but I can understand their position not to prosecute - especially if they have clear evidence showing that the decisions go straight to the top. When you start pulling this thread, you have to be prepared to pull it all the way.

So what happens if we put Bush on trial and convict him of war crimes? Regardless of any Obama pardon, he would have still been found guilty in an American court of law. What bearing would that have on an international war crimes trial? What if Bush is convicted in an international court? Now we have a former POTUS that is a fugitive from international authority, because you can bet your ass he wouldn't be delivered into custody.

So what's worse...letting an issue like this slide, or setting a precedent for any former (or current) POTUS to be put on trial not only in the US, but in an international court?

Ever glad to help! :-)

The crazies on the left are more likely to sing Kumbayah than they are to shoot anybody.

On a more serious note though, I see this as the sort of issue that ought to unite people across the board though I know it won't be easy. The issue is very clear and simple: will we follow the rule of law or not. If we do, then we must pursue investigations and prosecutions where warranted. If we do not follow the rule of law then our oft vaunted Republic based on the rule of law is nothing but a sham.

Given the last 8 years, we have to be "on" these folks for anything that deviates from the law!

I wonder if the administration wants anyone to do anything, however. By wanting to 'put this behind' them, they are obstructing justice in this case.

I think Congress must act on this. We can't be what the Republican Congress was to Bush: a rubber stamp body.

Unfortunately, they are just words.

Well, I can agree the administration is chicken, but there's no backbone at the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue either. Congress refuses to act unless they have the President's backing. The Democratic Party's lack of integrity and political courage is breathtaking. So don't hold your breath waiting for the Pelosi/Reid Chicken Brigade to do anything.

"This isn't Nixonesque corruption . . . . this was a good faith effort."

Sez who? And was the unprovoked war on Iraq also a "good faith effort"? Why can't you recognize that the Bush/Rove/Cheney cabal (who STOLE two presidential elections!) was a bunch of gangsters?

Nixonesque corruption PALES in comparison to these crimes. And Nixon's aides, including his Attorney General, DID go to prison.

And, in any case, the whole point is NO ONE should be above the law--- "President" or "POTUS" as you so cutely put it, is NOT emperor or divinity . . . NOT SUPPOSED TO BE, anyway. And yet under Mr. Obama, the touted "Constitutional scholar," that's where we're at.

The ugly truth is that the secret government of spy agencies and military-industrial entities, is more powerful than the representative government chosen by the electors.

Mr. Obama chooses to be a puppet rather than a martyr. That's his choice. Only a massive popular uprising can alter the status quo---elections will never work. The disillusioned electorate will sit out the mid-terms, and the overt fascists will be back in the White House before long.

Lincoln only won the Civil War by getting radical---getting to the root of the problem. He freed the slaves and armed them. President Obama is faced with problems which cannot be solved without radical action.

You draw precisely the wrong conclusion. To prosecute these criminals doesn't "open the door" for every future administration to go after its predecessor. (Such retaliation would only work anyway if the predecessor HAD been violating laws.) Rather, NOT PROSECUTING is what really opens the door for an endless series of increasingly criminal, outlaw regimes, which culminates in totalitarian control of America and abrogation of all vestiges of liberty---done in the name of Homeland Security. "Freedom is slavery." (See Jackie Chan story elsewhere on TPM.)

He should live up to his words - or resign! Or Congress could impeach, I suppose.

Do we know, for sure, Holder has ruled out appointing a Special Prosecutor? I haven't read that.

You need to put up a "hen-pecking" website! Start a movement! We could get lots of us hen-peckers to demonstrate! Our logo will be you!

Hens have peckers??

:O

hum

henpecked adjective
harassed by persistent nagging [syn: dominated]

BRILLIANT! We'll have a barnyard revolt, the chcikens will henpeck them, the horses will nag, the pigalitos will.... um, OH! and the puppies will bitch!

If you peoples won't do you're bit, I guess it'll be up to us assorted critters. Make NOISE!! Let your reps know.

NO TORTURE. NO QUIBBLING. NO CLEMANCY.

Are we men, or monsters?

(figuratively speaking...)

I still don't think it's so cut and dry as "basic law enforcement". Yes, laws were broken. Personally I think they should all go to prison, assuming they are actually found guilty. But I don't think the decision is all that simple.

Maybe I misspoke when I said that it for sure was "a good faith effort.", because personally I'm not convinced it was. Let me say it a different way. Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it *wasn't* a good faith effort?

I just think there's a lot more to the decision than putting them on trial and letting things fall where they may.

As for this thought:

"Such retaliation would only work anyway if the predecessor HAD been violating laws."

You're also assuming that the new administration is altruistic and follows the letter of the law. What happens if the new administration is as corrupt as the Bush administration? Then they could FIND violations, even if nothing illegal actually took place. You don't need to be convicted for your life and legacy to be ruined. Look at all the crap that Obama appointees are having to put up with, in the name of 'thorough vetting' by Republicans. And with the way information flows across the web and across the world these days, more than ever you're guilty until proven unfit for office.

Look at it this way. Bush 43 spent eight years doing his absolute best to expand the power of the executive. They overstepped their bounds by tremendous amounts and set many precedents. Why do you think republicans are so pissed off over having lost the White House? They went to all that trouble to gain power just to hand the keys over to the Democrats. It's like sharpening a knife just to hand it to your worst enemy.

I DO think it's wrong to just decide that *everyone* involved is free of prosecution. I think it needs to be handled a lot more carefully than blindly issuing indictments of the highest ranking government officials.

What good will prosecuting them do? The damage, both to our nation's reputation and to the people involved, is already done. I doubt prosecuting them will restore that reputation. I think the best we can do is make things transparent so that it doesn't happen again. Make it clear that the decision to torture is *never* justified, and if your superior tells you to do it, refuse or you WILL be prosecuted, along with your superior and so on, all the way up the chain.

As for the notion of allowing the international community conduct trials...not in this or any other lifetime. That would require the US to give up a bit of its sovereignty, and that's something we tend to expect other countries to do, not us.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Are you really surprised that we're not prosecuting Bush 43? Tell me you're not that idealistic.

I bet we can get half of the country's 200 million voters to start thinking and acting a certain way and not just the small percentage of political junkies represented at TPM. I'm not giving up and suspect the number of people who are in the same place will continue to grow exponentially until real change becomes inevitable. I hope we are seeing Obama's learning curve in progress and not the final triumph of a corrupt system.

A five-star post, oleeb. You've given my own thoughts perfect expression. Heartfelt thanks.