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    Speaking of Socialism and Good Policy Ideas

                                                 

    (from Oct. 2009)  Wow; how ironic!

    Some if us been discussing the limits of capitalism, and what models or changes to our economic system might be more sustainable and beneficial to more of us than the 5% or so it seems presently designed to serve.

    It can be argued that ours is a system of mixed economics, mainly capitalism with some great socialistic programs, and that since the New Deal, and at different points in the balance has slid  along the continuum between the two points.  It’s quite clear that since Reagan’s terms in office, we’ve been ratcheting toward laissez-faire capitalism again, and this administration seems on board with that, and has been content with fairly minimal FinReg enactment, and not much in the way of enforcing existing regulations.  The administration is far too sanguine about the economy as long as Wall Street’s doing well, and it can keep its fingers crossed that enough jobs will come back before the next election.  (Few credible economists believe they will.)  Many of us fear for what that means in our near future in terms of (faux) claims of deficit reduction necessitating cuts to social safety programs, education, federal pay freezes, jobs stimulus, and so much else.

    That there is fear of the term socialism in this country goes without saying.  Good Lord, look how many on the right cry that Obama is a socialist, which couldn’t be much further from the truth, and they do so without understanding that their Medicare and Medicaid programs are socialism at work.

    So we’ve kicked around the question of how Democrats can present policy and tax reform ideas that focus on fairness and economic justice for all without scaring the daylights out of persuadable voters, and whether or not to go ahead and embrace the socialist label while explaining how supply-side economics have proven disastrous to all those not five-percenters.

    This morning I happened upon a piece at CommonDreams by Tom Gallagher, slack-jawed at a piece by Matt Bai at the NYT.  Bai is weighing in on the massacre in Arizona, inflammatory words and images, etc., but in the middle of his piece he says:

    “In fact, much of the message among Republicans last year, as they sought to exploit the Tea Party phenomenon, centered — like the Tea Party moniker itself — on this imagery of armed revolution. Popular spokespeople like Ms. Palin routinely drop words like “tyranny” and “socialism” when describing the president and his allies, as if blind to the idea that Americans legitimately faced with either enemy would almost certainly take up arms.”

    Really, Matt?  Americans would take up arms against socialism if they were legitimately faced with it?   Would you like to reconsider that after a few moments' thinking about how many perfectly fine nations, not to mention allies of ours have in power at different times socialist parties?  Gallagher writes:

    “Now, despite the fact that it is considered this country’s “paper of record,” it may be a mistake to assume too great a level of worldly sophistication on the part of Times writers, so a quick review on this socialism thing may be in order. While the precise meaning of “socialism” is more a matter for debate than one of definition, we can say for sure that parties belonging to the Socialist International are currently in power in Australia, Austria, Belgium, Ecuador, Greece, Iceland, Norway, Portugal, Spain, South Africa, Uruguay and a number of other countries. Nations where they have recently been in power include France, Germany, the United Kingdom and all parts of Scandinavia.”

    That an assumedly respected writer at the Times can react so fearfully to the term and write that sentence is worrisome, and I hope commenters will call him out for it. 

    But in a larger context I hope that such foolishness can’t undermine what would be good policy in the next two years; for I have a theory:

    If, as many of us have been led to expect, the President will announce his intentions toward fiscal austerity in his SOTU speech, and will follow with bipartisan fiscal haircuts that will further erode any economic recovery for the middle and poorer classes, many Americans will want to push back against them.  If Democratic members of Congress can feel the mood, and the wrong-headedness of the direction we will likely be further headed, it may be a perfect opportunity to speak forcefully against those moves.

    The moves by Republicans to repeal the Affordable Care Act could conceivably open the debate for Medicare for all, or at least a strong public option.  Cuts to Social Security or raising the retirement age could honestly open the debate for an expansion of benefits.  The same for a true jobs stimulus, though admittedly it might need to be renamed, possibly as sustainable manufacturing and infrastructure program with green features.  Judith Stein makes a great case for the many reasons we need to return to a strong manufacturing base.  (Her piece deserves a diary of its own.)

    Obama recently promised American businesspeople more trade deals to come, and Daley and Sperling will be selling the KORUS trade deal.  We need to prevent that, or make sure the deal is rewritten as a fair trade deal, including and especially fair to American labor.

    Any or all of this would obviously require and end run around the President.  Only incredible grassroots movements can provide the incentive to our Representatives in Washington; and we’ll need to convince others not to be afraid of policy that is for people.  We need a New New Deal.

    I hope you’ll all have some thoughts, and thanks to all who've contributed to this discussion at Dagblog.

    (cross-posted at My.firedoglake.com)

    Comments

    I actually think Americans would take up arms against socialism if they were faced with it, but not for the reason Bai thinks and not the way he thinks, either.  Make no mistake that if the plutocrats thought the masses were gathering to get their share, they would find, recruit, buy and train the biggest and the baddest of them to beat us back.  This has happened before.  Companies used to hire thugs to beat up union protesters when the police couldn't be counted on to do the job for them.  And this was over stuff like a 9 hour work day and weekends off. 


    This is the kind of thing that the second amendment people would you rather not remember.


    You mean that you'd likely get shot by some highly paid Blackwater goon within two minutes of your brave revolution against the government?  Yeah.  They live in a fantasy world.


    Something like that...yeah.


    That wouldn't really be Americans taking up arms, wouldn't it be de facto plutocrats taking up arms?  I'm not so sure that when times get even leaner and more frightening, more Americans won't be ready to hear that Medicare is a socialist program, and be ready for others.

    And what did Bai mean that he made the claim, do you think?  Which Americans?  Palinites?  And does he really mean to spread the idea that a socialist party is inherently worth killing for?


    I think he just means that if Lenin came here and said he was taking voer that we wouldn't have it.  Even Tea Partiers want their Medicare.


    Is he being purposely childish, then?  Where is a Lenin in this country?  Bernie Sanders?  ;o)


    I'm no Lenin, but I might be Trotsky...


    Note to self: Don't end up with icepick in skull...


    " I might be Trotsky..."

    too bad. 

    Vanguards are so impatient and winning hearts and minds takes time.


    Yeah, but riding out in front of that locomotive is cool!


    I think he's saying that the threats Palin is talking about don't exist in reality and that if they did we wouldn't need her to tell us to do something about it.  On that much, I kind of agree with him.


    ARISE YE PRISONERS OF STARVATION!

    I think it is time for the frankly named third party:

    The Class War Party.  "We are not gonna lay down and die anymore"  No wait:

    Class Warriors (it scans better)

    Class Warricans (a subtle joke?)


    Keep going, Pirate.  Though if we could have a movement within (or better, coming out of) the Democratic Party, it might be better, IMO.  As in Sleeping Jeezus's "Let Democrats Be Democrats!" theme.  Right now my brain won't remember the group in the UK '______ Resistance that formed to fight austerity.

    Back in the days Ed Asner and some key people were forming a new Socialist Democrats movement, there were positions on different issues; one was CEOs couldn't earn mire than ten times what the lowest wage earner made.  And I only offer that not because I think government is ready to think in those terms, but maybe people would.  Yeah; maybe I'm dreaming on that one, but then...


    The Monster Raving Loony Party? Already with a totally cool name, we only need to infiltrate...


    Okay, wiseass.  The Rent's Too High dude's party at least make some freaking sense.  Skip Party names, then.


    Let's not slight his poetry: it was The Rent's Too Damn High Party


    My mother taught me not to curse, fuck you very much.  Cool


    So, do you kiss your (insert revered person) with those lips??


    I swear before Jesus, that guy is gonna be in the history books long after Carl Palladino is in the dustheap, and, let's be honest, Palladino ("I'm gonna take you out") was no chopped liver...


    Carl Palladino!  OMG, I forgot all about Carl Palladino.  Sometimes not having a memory works for me.  (But don't feel bad about reminding me. Five minutes from now I'll have forgotten Carl Palladino again.)


     Five minutes from now I'll have forgotten

     

    See?  That's what I mean--I bet you remember "the rent's too damn high party"  twenty years from now--the guys name, maybe not so much...


    Did the Royalist Party change their name then?


    Ah, a subtle inside reference to the identity of the founder (Screaming) Lord Sutch...or so I take it...


    How about Labor?


    Works for me, but my godfather was Organizing Sec. of the UE-maybe the last rank and file union (they're the ones who organized the great Chicago window factory sit-in recently...)

    HUAC called him the third highest Commie in America and tried to deport his Stalinist ass back to Romania.

    And that was when Labor was still relatively popular, so I'm not sure a modern Labor Party is gonna test well in the focus groups.

    Also, Tony Blair...


    Because it has been so successfully villified, the term 'socialism' may well be beyond redemption for a couple of generation to come.  For sure there are people who would take up arms against that straw man.

    Why not just give it up for now and use the language of business to accomplish the same social goals?  Example:  Ask why pooling our resources into private investment vehicles like mutual funds is considered a wise thing but pooling them into a government-sponsored enterprise or fund is condemned as the road to hell.  And what difference does it make if your health insurer is a private or public enterprise as long as it does what it is supposed to.  

    The standard argument is that private programs are voluntary and government programs are mandatory but that is just not true, at least it does not have to be.  People could still be free to choose between being insured by Medicare-for-all or with, say United Healthcare.   Wouldn't it be better to have government enterprises setting benchmark standards for private enterprise through competition rather than than playing endless cat and mouse regulatory games.

    We really need to think about setting up some of what are called sovereign wealth funds.  Imagine one set up to issue credit cards at government bond rates.  :)   How much in taxes would that offset?  Or an SWF for mortgages like Fannie and Freddie but without the profits being skimmed off.  One for student loans?  There is already at least one electric utility - TVA.

    Thoughts?


    free to choose between being insured by Medicare-for-all or with, say United Healthcare.

    That sound you hear is the rubber meeting the road.  While there was still the illusion of a debate over the public option, the Repugnant opponents had the effrontery to raise as an objection the (self) evident inability of private plans to compete "because they have to make a profit"

    Talk about your unintentional speakers of the truth...


    "because they have to make a profit"

    So they can provide all those jobs that aren't I suppose. :)

    Honestly, insurance was probably not the best first tent to try to get the camel's nose under.  Too big, too intertwined and too connected to local chamber-of-commerce, rotarian types.  Ever notice how many independent insurance agents are in the yellow pages?


    independent agents

    Talk about your meretricious and utterly parasitic business model!  Everyone  (or maybe not) knows they take big slice of the first premium dollar, diminishing the actual benefits deliverable on any policy until several years have passed.


    And those local chambers likely have no idea what uber-capitalist vultures the national CoC is, shipping jobs overseas, collecting funds to lobby Congress on behalf of the defense and banking industries that turn around and screw local economies.


    Maybe not but since their local status is tied up with their local memberships, I am not it would make a difference if they did know.

    Sad


    On Ramona's thread, I actually argued for jettisoning the term, but selling the concepts.  I wasn't even thinking as far as something along the line SWF; I don't know enough about the term, but tell us more.  Not even so much as government controlling the means of production, but government staking employee-owned businesses or factories, maybe private-public ventures.


    Sovereign Wealth Funds come in all sizes and shapes.  They are basically a kind of government mutual fund.  The first one I ever came across was this one:

    State of Alaska - Permanent Fund 

    Notice at dead center of the screen is the 2010 dividend paid to every qualifying resident of Alaska.   I think that includes children although there may be some limit on how many it would pay to have. It has been awhile since I researched the topic.


    Did it start when all Alaskans were given a piece of the fine for the Exxon Valdez oil spill in the 90s?


    No.  When oil was discovered on the North Slope.  More comprehensive info here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund


    Texas also has an SWF for some of its oil royalties.

    Also, here's Wikipedia on SWFs

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_wealth_fund


    Okay; the Wiki entry helped clear some of my confusion.  Over the past year, when economists said the next boomerang on financial meltdown would be sovereign wealth funds, they indicated foreign funds.  And those likely were ones held by Central Banks, which would be counter-productive here, yes?  The Fed is a large part of the current dilemma.


    The Wiki article was very slanted toward what SWFs exist now.  Basically they are investment funds and can be formed around any type of investment -- stocks, bonds, real estate....even those abominable credit default swaps .... just like any other mutual or hedge fund.    

    Oh, and there is a national security aspect to US having our own.  China, Russia, Dubai, etc. all have them and occasionally use them strategically.  We need our own for self-defense. :D


    I like your idea of using business models to develop policy and initiatives. One place it can be emphasized is in the matter of cutting services to decrease debt. When it comes to health, education, and environmental protection, cutting efforts in these areas only defers future outcome cost. It is a form of borrowing money.


    Yes....a business axiom....'you've got to spend money to make money'. 

    Slightly OT, one of the first business axioms I learned was "Don't confuse brains with a bull market'.  Apparently that is too easy to forget in 30 years into a bull market. :D


    Isn't that what the best economists are trying to tell the White House and legislators, and getting nowhere though?  What potential pool of money could there be to start some green manufacturing, for instance, or am I seeing this wrong?  With Emma's SWFs, there is a potential pool for resource revenues in the future. 


    The sovereign wealth idea has a lot of potential but we could also employ tax expenditures in a more structured fashion than the cookie jar extraction model underway at the moment.

    I suppose there are experts who promote Emma Zahn's idea of public institutions competing with private firms. Building a political language for a broader view of that competition would have to come from more than the immediate office holders. There is an element of society that has hijacked a conversation. How can we free the hostage?


    Moat, it's been my experience that those who ask such questions may hold some of the keys to the answers.  More, please.  ? 


    I will try making more. I am pretty slow, though.


    This is a vast topic and there are numerous approaches to just begin to address the topic.  But one thing I noticed in the thread so far is the rather narrow economic focus.  Of course that is the prime focus at the moment, but one of the reasons that the "elites" have been able to keep the people from being a power is by leveraging social issues.  Why back when the tea party was first emerging, there were those who began to broach the topic of forces from the left and right finding common economic ground.  Whether gay marriage, abortion, or gun control, issues that are not primarily economic issues tend to divide the "people" and keep them from rallying around common economic objectives. 

    One of the achievements of the conservatives is to wrap up a number of social perspectives in their family values, free markets and the American way rhetoric.  Aside from whatever economic concerns some folks may have about "socialism" or whatever smacks them of being socialist policies, socialism also represents on the one hand the social decadence and on the other hand the tyranny of government.  This is why the notion of death panels was such an easy scare tactic.  It went to the very heart of the fear about socialism.  When Obama was first elected there was a huge spike in gun and bullet sales because folks were convinced that Obama and the liberal democrats would move in quick order to impose strict gun control laws and take a lot of their arms away.

    It is these folks who were running to their nearest gun store after the 2008 election that a strong movement will need if it is to power to sway the decisions in D.C.  And the list goes on.  The middle class suburban family who goes to the near-by megachurch and believes abortion is evil.  The logging community that has been devastated by environmental regulations.  How much are people willing to put aside in order to find the common ground necessary to unite the "two sides?"  In order to do that it may be necessary for some interest groups on the left to tone down or even be quiet for the moment while attention is primarily focused on economic issues like trade deals and infrastructure programs. 


    Which groups do you see needing to tone down?  I hope not the unions; they've already been so marginalized by this Presidency.

    One of the reasons in Ramona's thread I thought to come up with different terminology was thinking how for so many capitalism somehow equates to 'personal incentive to work hard', even though much in the array of socialist ideology doesn't mean that.   You don;t hear talk of 'guarantted annual income' for instance.

    Ooops--re-reading I see which social ideologies you meant.  Yes; I'm thinking now primarily of economic interests, moving toward sustainability and eco-concerns.  Did you read the Stein link?  I'm so glad she's thinking big thoughts.  ;o)


    The topic is Socialism, right? That is what the Newsweek cover indicates.  Last time I checked socialism was an economic model.  Did that change?  Shouldn't the emphasis be on economics. Why are you trying to divert it to what you want to talk about?


    Let me go back to the original blog.  Stardust writes:

    Any or all of this would obviously require and end run around the President.  Only incredible grassroots movements can provide the incentive to our Representatives in Washington; and we’ll need to convince others not to be afraid of policy that is for people.  We need a New New Deal.

    I was speaking to what I saw as part of the dynamics to a developing an "incredible grassroots movement" and of the dynamics that come into play as to why people are "afraid of the policy that is for the people."

    I will say this.  Socialism is an economic model, but an economic model that rests, IMO, on a collective sense of responsibility, support, and sacrifice.  Maybe one can be successful making arguments just based on enlightened self-interest. But I would argue that if we really want to see incredible grassroots movements to achieve socialist policy changes, then we first have to achieve an incredible sense of community between people who currently don't see themselves as part of the same community.  We are divided by hatred, ignorance and fear.  It is very difficult to stand arm and arm in unity against the powers to be when one or more despises the other or sees the other as one of the "them", whether it be because of ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, economic status, or whatever.

    And when individuals who are, say, against gay marriage, believe that "big government" (which is the last two words of the mag's sub-headline) which is necessary to carry out economic socialist policies will also lead to liberal social agenda items such as gay marriage, then that just makes it all the more difficult.

    I think we need to still stand up for things like gay marriage, even if it muddies the economic rhetoric.  But in formulating the messaging, the nature of the fear needs to be understood and taken into account. 


    I agree that making arguments based only upon enlightened self-interest will not be sufficient. But that element is important if a new consensus about social policy is to be built. Self interest is also involved with communities providing new oppurtunities and resources. Without that dynamic, the power of the marketplace is left unchallenged. It keeps the means to create on one side and "a thousand points of light" on the other.

    Instead of socialism, maybe it could be called anti-monopolism. Instead of designing toward "removing" a function from the private sphere, a competing organization breaks up industry cartels.


    TR's trustbusting seemed to resonate for a lot of people. We need a term like that. Eat the Rich is too snarky; Share the Wealth or Spread the Wealth sounds like a giveaway.


    I should have said that the Newsweek cover seemed to indicate that Socialism wasn't such a verbotten term.  That they got the conversation wrong was a different story, IMO.

    But this is from Stein's piece on the need for manufacturing, and I think could be useful in discussions about what needs done, and maybe yours, and others, for the 'how to finance' things.

    When U.S. durable goods manufacturing went into decline in the 1980s, capital shifted into other sectors such as finance, housing and defense, where it could be used more productively.  While the boom on Wall Street produced greater economic inequality, it did maintain stability until around 2007, when the housing bubble burst and the finance-based economy showed it could not sustain itself.    

    Today, education and healthcare are among the few sectors generating economic growth, but they cannot reduce the trade balance.  Only making more of the things we use and import -- capital goods, autos, computers, appliances -- can do that.     
    The United States needs to foster a manufacturing renaissance.  The U.S. still is the world's leading manufacturer, measured by value.    Steel, aluminum, and other primary metal industries employ three times as many people as those engaged in renewable energy.   These are not your grandfather's steel mills, but modern high-end companies that operate on the technological frontier.  But since 2002, the U.S. has run a deficit in the advanced technology trade.     

    Industrial leaders such as General Electric CEO Jeff Immelt and former Intel Chairman Andrew Grove have warned that without manufacturing, restoring the nation's economic health will be impossible.   Unions have expressed willingness to work with management to produce mutually shared gains, similar to those experienced from the end of World War II until the mid 1970s."      (my bold)

    We keep extolling the virtues of the (creepy, by now, IMO) expression 'thinking outside the box'.  Even though mutually shared gains is not new, it could be revamped, and might be an example of capitalism/socialism mix for green and/or sustainable industry that would reduce the trade imbalance AND put people back to work.


    stardust, thanks for this.  We can't stress enough the need to get back to actual manufacturing of goods.  It's such an obvious fix, just as it was obvious when we were moving away from it that we were heading for the cliff.  Such shortsightedness on the part of those who have our lives in their hands can't be ignored or diminished.  It never should have happened, but now that it has we can't go on pretending we're going to get out of this by simply shuffling money.  We need to be making things!


    Come the New New Deal, I'm gonna be taller. 

    Damn straight.


    I find that I need to take some time away from this site and assess my involvement with it.  Please continue any discussion that might be useful; we're going to need all the help possible in the near future.

    stardust


    gonna miss..come back soon.


    You can't leave, stardust. Yours is a very important voice which is greatly appreciated. Stick around. Take a break, if needed, but don't EVER give up! ;O)


    What Sleepin' said.


    How about we maintain focus on a simple message?

    This is where the working family was at in terms of wealth and income and employment opportunities in 1980 (relative to the wealthiest 2%)

    This is where we are at in 2011.

    Guess what, folks? Trickle-down Reaganomics has failed, and failed miserably.

    It's time we try something different.

    Take every opportunity to point out how the Republicans want more of the same. And then, at last, stand firm in opposition to this crazy decimation of the middle class.

    Fair Trade instead of Free Trade. Tell the Chamber of Commerce to take NAFTA and CAFTA and KORUS and blow it out their ass.

    Pass EFCA as the first step in promoting the strengthening of Trade Unions as a countervailing control on the rapacious corporations who would sell out the American worker to fatten their bottom line.

    Bush Tax Cuts? You gotta' be kidding me!

    Etc... 

    I think you can get the picture. Yeah, keep it simple, just as it has best been done throughout our history. Stand tall. Speak truth to power. Give the beleaguered middle class something to rally around that provides opportunity to actually fight back against the continual erosion of their circumstance that is widely felt.

    Highlight the suffering caused by the almost crazed thirst for power and wealth of the oligarchs. And then stand foursquare in opposition to the continuation of this madness while providing a roadmap of the way we will work together to make this economy work in the interest of ALL Americans.

    Or - in the alternative - continue working out compromises with the oligarchs that keep campaign contributions flowing at the expense of being a political party that is complicit in "leading" the American people in the same manner that a farmer leads pigs to slaughter.  


    Card check betrayal: 'This was the unkindest cut of all...'


    You are right, jollyroger. And how was it framed by Obama/Rahm?: Essentially "Well, we just didn't have the votes for this radical piece of legislation."

    See? It wasn't their fault! LOL!


    Maybe they didn't have the votes...but who knows.  They certainly had the juice to bring it to the floor and force the running dogs to lick their asses in abject servitude to their masters, so everyone could see...


    That's such a cool image, that I will not trouble myself to parse whose asses the dogs are licking, since they famously lick their own....


    My comment was an attempt to show the subtlety of how their messaging ("radical piece of legislation") can conveniently let them off the hook in their effort to undermine the successful realization of a campaign promise. We've witnessed a lot of that, generally engaged to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at the behest of their monied owners.

    "We really wanted this unpopular piece of crap! Really we did! Foursquare behind this non-starter, we was! Honest!"

    See the Public Option in the HCR effort as another prime example of how this works. Also see derivative regulation and Financial Consumer Protection in the FinReg effort. The examples of this are far too common to not see them for what they are. Palooka-Dems. Pulling punches so they can steal defeat from the jaws of victory. And these are the guys that are supposedly on OUR side!


    BTW, sleepin, always good to see that Studs lives, obits to the contrary notwithstanding.


    Thanks, JR. Very kind. I honor studs and pay tribute to him. But I could not ever pretend to have the depth of understanding he did, nor the ability to communicate it as effectively. Dang it! ;O)


    He was one of a kind....I bet his last words were :"Don't Mourn...Organize."


    Focus on the SOTU to see which of the two messages (outlined above) prevail. If Obama remains consistent, the "compromise" meme will be strengthened way past the point of "compromised."

    I wish it were different. But that's what we got in the White House as a supposed champion of our Democratic Party and its principles and ideals. Call me decidedly unimpressed. We can - no, we MUST - do better than this!


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