cmaukonen's picture

    Power to the People

    By cmaukonen on Mon, 02/28/2011 - 8:19pm |



    I received a letter from my electric utility stating that they were again going to merger with another utility. The reason stated was to make sure there is enough generation capacity and to help keep rates low for their customers.  I have learned over the years that this usually means my rates are going to go up again.

    Here is a LINK to a PBS page on electric power generation in the US. if you click on the sources button, you can see what is used to generate electricity in each state. As you can see, coal is still the primary fuel for electric power generation.  Both Bush and Obama have been try ing to push for nuclear power, but with out substantial government subsidies it is not economically viable. As this chart shows.


    You can read more here.  The construction costs alone are substantial.  So even with this support and the public resistant to have any of them near population centers, power companies are reluctant ti invest in them even with subsidies.  And with the government budget and budget hawks circling overhead, how long do you thing these subsidies will last ? So coal is the fuel of choice for electric power generation still and we have a bunch of it.


    You you might (or might not) be saying to your self, "Hey we got coal coming out our ears. Electricity - No Problemo."
    Well not so fast. Even though we have this stuff and can burn it fairly cleanly, if we want to. We first need to get it to the power plants and this is where oil comes in big time. All or nearly all coal is transported to the power plants by rail and rail is diesel powered. All the equipment used to extract the stuff from under the ground or off the top of mountains is oil powered as well.  (You really didn't think they used mules any more, did you ?) So then electric power generation becomes a transport fuel problem.  When the price of oil goes up, the price of transport goes up and the price of coal goes up and the price of electricity goes up.

    What about renewable ? Solar and wind etc. They have a different set of problems. For one thing they require a good bit of real estate and for another people are resistant to having them close to where they live. Of and Solar requires nice sunny days. Which kind of rules our certain areas of the country for that. I am not making judgment here, just stating the realities. So this is where we stand.

    Here are some fun facts.

    All those nice new tech devices you own. The PC and Television and DVD player and sound system. They all still draw electricity when they are "turned off". You have to actually unplug them or have a power strip to remove the power.

    That nearly every electric device you own. Refrigerator, AC, lights, dryer, electric stove, heat, anything with a motor in it, even your electronics. They all draw the most power when they are initially turned on.

    The way we generate electricity has not change significantly since the early 1900s.

    That the induction electric motor that is in your AC, washing machine, dryer, pump etc. and was invented by Nicoli Tesla was not meant be run on the single phase style current we have in our homes. So it is kind of kludged to get it to work.

    And here is a chart of the cost of generating electricity by various means.



    Most of us would have a very difficult time getting along without electricity.


    Comments

    The good thing about electricity is that there are so many ways to generate it.  The only thing bad I can think of is how hard it is to store.  Maybe that is because producing it was supposed to be too cheap to meter so no one has yet given much thought to storing it.

    Rather than subsidizing and/or promoting various power-generating boondoggles, I would prefer the government build the infrastructure for a new distributed power grid.  It should have lots of built-in redundancy so that a tree falling on some equipment in one state does not black out several. One that anyone can sell electricity to as well as buy from where prices are set in a fair and open energy exchange. 

    I have many more thoughts on this subject but will reserve them for later.


    by EmmaZahn on Mon, 02/28/2011 - 10:29pm

    Great comments Emma and worth thinking about for sure.


    by cmaukonen on Mon, 02/28/2011 - 11:11pm

    Battery storage capacity has grown so all the electricity one captures with their solar cell arrays can be stored for later use. What's interesting is one normally captures more than one can use. In Germany, the power company buys back your excess power and gives you a credit so on those days where there isn't enough sunlight and you have to use power off the grid you get a discount that's an offset of the power you sold them. Just think if every home had solar cell arrays on their roofs with storage batteries how much self generation power would ease demand from the local power grid. The only problem would the sudden demand placed on the grid due to weather or other unforeseen circumstances.


    by Beetlejuice on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 7:57am

    The power companies WOULD raise the rates, because sales were down.


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 8:10am

    We're talking Germany here. Utilities are a social need so the government keeps an eye on rates. Same for auto gas and fuel oil. Also, buying back power from customers solar cell excess means less polution is being created to produce electricity so there's an incentive for the power companies to play nice.


    by Beetlejuice on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 8:17am

    I should have said "here.

    A friend told me that when Cailfornia went to conservation of Water, the people conserved so much,  the utility raised the rates to offsert the lost revenue.


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 8:22am

    Are you competing with David for most pessimistic commentator? :D

     


    by EmmaZahn on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:09pm

    I figured David, I and a few others hadn't drunk the koolaid, so we didnt bury our heads in the sand.

    Staying alert and angry enough to sound the alarm, we didnt put on the rose colored glasses or the blinders.  We're going to defend against becoming apathetic or complacent.  

    Us: "Wake up people; do you know what time it is".

    As the many "others"  tell us "shut up, let us sleep a little longer, it's so peaceful in our dreams"


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 1:09pm

    Good luck with that.  Better luck than I had playing Cassandra anyway. :)

    Yes, the sky is falling and everything is fubar but I prefer to look beyond to affecting what comes next rather than pine for some mythical glory days of yore which were not as glorious as some would have us believe.  The 60s and 70s pretty much sucked which is why Reagan won in 1980.

    Like FDR said, if something doesn't work, try something else.   To do that you have to think of something else.  That is where I am concentrating my thoughts.

     

    --Where there is no vision, the people perish--- Proverbs ?:?

     


    by EmmaZahn on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 2:17pm

    *applause*

    Reminds me for some reason of a fact I learned in grade school,

    that the motto of my birth state of Wisconsin is:

    FORWARD

    (adopted in 1851 and on the state coat of arms.)

    P.S. Like FDR said, if something doesn't work, try something else.

    Thank you for that--good one to quote to The-New-Deal-is-the-Bible reactionaries.


    by artappraiser on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 3:15pm

    Thank you for that--good one to quote to The-New-Deal-is-the-Bible reactionaries.

    Who, in your view, are the "New Deal-is-the-Bible reactionaries"?  At the site, I mean.


    by AmericanDreamer on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 3:42pm

    Sigh. Not you and not the more thoughtful participants here if that's what you're thinking.

    It's just the ones that use it as a  simplistic mantra that drive me nuts--i.e., let's bring the 1930's--they were swell--because of the new deal all was well and everyone was happy back then!-

    I actually do not see it often here, I see it very frequently at other sites, like TPM, Kos, Firedoglake.

    And my use of the word "reactionary" here is a reference to a long running sporadic discussion between Emma and me, like here after she brought up it's proper original usage on a thread long ago about political labels.


    by artappraiser on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 3:57pm

    I hadn't seen that at all here, was wondering if I just missed it.  Since acanuck said the other day that, viewing the US from Canada, he thinks that straw man argumentation is close to a national character flaw in us, I've been finding more examples of it than I'd like to.  Just another example, perhaps, of the adage that if you are looking for something there's a greater chance you'll find it than if you're not. 


    by AmericanDreamer on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 5:37pm

    Thanks.


    by EmmaZahn on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 7:15pm

    Proverbs 29:18 (King James Version) 18Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

    Proverbs 29:18 (American Standard Version) 18 Where there is no vision, the people cast off restraint; But he that keepeth the law, happy is he. 

    I think this one is more appropriate to our time. 

    Jeremiah 23:16 (New American Standard Bible)
        16Thus says the LORD of hosts,
             "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you 
             They are leading you into futility;
             They speak a vision of their own imagination,
             Not from the mouth of the LORD.

    Wink


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 4:36pm

    Hmmmmm.   Duelling Bible verses.   How unusual. 

     


    by EmmaZahn on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 7:08pm

    I thought about going into photovoltaic and battery storage but decided to leave that for another post.

    Very good for small home or commercial use but does not scale well to anything very large. Lead acid batteries giving the best bang for the buck still. And using transformer-less sine wave inverters which are much easier to construct these days using IGBT or Power Mosfet technology.


    by cmaukonen on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 10:16am

    Ever hear about the SETI Project? Where a bunch of starry-eyed ET hunters use our personal computers to chunk raw data into meaningful info. The fastest computers would take years to analyze the data, but millions of PC's working on data files piecemeal can work just as fast if not faster.

    Now apply that to millions of single homes with a solar collector arrays on their roofs collecting more electricity that the occupants can use.


    by Beetlejuice on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 8:27pm

    I was referring to large fields of solar arrays for megawatt generation. What you suggest would work and is what I was referring to. I guess I was not as clear as I should have been.


    by cmaukonen on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 8:49pm

    I am leaning more toward compressed air as a means of storage and regeneration.   I already have a 500 gallon propane gas tank buried in my back yard; why not one for air? 

    Also have several turbine roof/attic vents that whirl away like crazy late summer.  Why not develop a way to scavenge some of that energy for current and futurer use?  

    There is so much to fire the imagination in this field.   I really hope it doesn't get squashed by this consortium:

    http://www.nustartenergy.com/

     


    by EmmaZahn on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:08pm

    Well that is what needs to be though about Emma. There are a lot of ways we can generate energy individually or in small groups that work amazingly well. But do not scale up to large commercial distribution well. Which is probably why electric companies and the Government do not consider them.


    by cmaukonen on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:29pm

    Keyword: commercial 

    Large scale commercial application is not the aim here although a well-designed two-way grid plus a free, fair and open energy exchange could enhance commercialization.   I was replying to a comment about battery storage which is problematic because of the increasingly scarce chemical components used in new battery technologies.

    The biggest hurdle for individuals and/or small groups generating their own power is that there are so many more who prefer depending on the kindness of multinational corporations.  That stifles development of smaller scale technologies.

     


    by EmmaZahn on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 12:45pm

    No...not at all. I was not even considering the new battery technologies. In fact the old ones hold up much better and are easier to use. Lead acid will be around a long, long time. There people who look for the old lead acid cells that were used in submarines during WWII. The are big and heavy but last a long time and can take a good deal of abuse, but they are increasingly difficult to find.

    And can give valuminus amounts of current. Like 1500 amps or more !


    by cmaukonen on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 6:09pm

    I've always found it annoying that Con Edison (New York City's electric company)  is a for-profit business, and not a utility, but I really went ballistic a few years back when speaking to one of their representatives and being told that Con Edison was no longer in the electricity business, but rather, they were in the electrical provider business.  In other words, they no longer generated any electricity, they were just energy pimps, buying energy from others and delivering to a location where they enjoyed a complete monopoly.  It was more profitable for them to re-package and re-sell energy than to actually create it themselves. And why did they get out of the electricity business? Because they were looking to increase profitability for their shareholders, rather than provide a necessary service to their eight million customers.


    by MrSmith1 on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 4:13am

    You can thank your legislators. In Nevada, they too dropped the ball. It happened back before Enron started manipulating the power grids. They promoted the grid could provide all the electrical power necessary at lower costs to users and free a State from having to regulate the utility. They bought it hook, line and sinker. The power utilities began selling off their power generation facilities and used the power off the grid. But there's more to the story.

    Seems the power on the grid wasn't as infinite was the legislators were lead to believe. The new utility company now set up rate tiers based on one's usage and time of day. Your rate could vary depending on how much power you were using as well as how much demand was being made to the grid. So instead of a flat rate for the amount of kilowatts used, your rate could vary day by day depending on citywide demand even though your usage was the same amount of kilowatts as the day before.


    by Beetlejuice on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 8:11am

    Grrr. Some upstate Republicans in Albany no doubt.  They just love NYC's tax revenues, but give back only a small percentage of it to the city in return.  They fund the entire rest of the state off New York City's teat.  New York City should do what Norman Mailer and Jimmy Breslin suggested during their campaign for mayor and city council president all those years ago; become it's own state and then let's see how well upstate New York does on its own. 


    by MrSmith1 on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 9:41am

    Another ENRON?


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 8:12am

    Here in Switzerland, the electricity generated is about 90% renewable. Which isn't bad. But they also have an interesting payment mechanism. You can choose the mix of energy sources you want to pay for (the greener the more expensive it is) by ticking off the appropriate box on a form. If you want an entirely 'green' bill, you pay around ten dollars more a month than the cheapest version. (Funnily, on the form, if you look at the small print, they concede that they can't actually ensure that every electron that reaches you comes from the relevant sources, but it's a way for the customers to determine the cost/sustainability trade-off in the aggregate.

    It's a nice sort of direct democracy as regards energy generation.


    by Obey on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 11:16am

    There is a Swiss commune group in Methernitha in Linden, Switzerland that have discovered an infinite power source.

    The swiss Ml or testakica free energy machine . An energy system which relies on the self moving wimhurst electro static generator for the high voltage and somehow the members of this commune have found a way to extract ,amplify and convert this energy to powerful useful levels.

    Some facts known about the machine:                                                                               

    • Constant Power output 230 volts at 13 amperes for a 3kw rating pulsed DC
    • Dimensions 110cm wide 45 cm deep 60cm high
    • 43.23 wide 17.68 deep weight approximately 20kg/ or 44 lbs X23.58
    • Self propulsion by way of the esf flow principle of motorised brushes to revolve the twin disks.
    • The machine is started by hand revolving the disk after this no additional input power is required.
    • Once unit is functioning it is not able to be moved with the machine coming to a stop.
    • The temperature in the area of the machine tends to become cooler.

    Here's the url : http://www.linux-host.org/energy/sswiss.htm

    I have some friends north of there near Lutzelfluh. I'll be paying them a visit this summer.


    by Beetlejuice on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 9:06pm

    I will have invented that two years ago…

    Edit to add: I have as much faith in perptual motion machines as I do in God…


    by Verified Atheist on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 9:14pm

    How about, we take a large section of land, built a pit and  line it wth an impervious material and fill it full of acid,

    We erect large towers to act as lightning rods, when the current goes through the lead infrastucture it charges the massive lead/acid battery.

    The electrolysis separates the hydrogen molecule,and we burn that also.

    Or we have one heck of a fireworks display.


    by Resistance on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 4:49pm

    Tesla would've liked the way you think…


    by Verified Atheist on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 7:29pm

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