Richard Day's picture

    DANGEROUS ATTACKS UPON SUFFRAGE

    File:Glass ballot box - Smithsonian.jpg

                    THE BALLOT BOX

    "The idea of restraining the right of suffrage to the freeholders... would create division among the people, and make enemies of all those who should be excluded."

    John Rutledge

    Alexis Tocqueville, decades after the Philadelphia Convention had this to say about ancient democracies and ancient republics:

    What was called the People in the most democratic republics of antiquity was very unlike what we designate by that term. In Athens all the citizens took part in public affairs; but there were only twenty thousand citizens to more than three hundred and fifty thousand inhabitants. All the rest were slaves, and discharged the greater part of those duties which belong at the present day to the lower or even to the middle classes. Athens, then, with her universal suffrage, was, after all, merely an aristocratic republic, in which all the nobles had an equal right to the government.

    The struggle between the patricians and plebeians of Rome must be considered in the same light: it was simply an internal feud between the elder and younger branches of the same family. All belonged to the aristocracy and all had the aristocratic spirit...

    http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/ch1_15.htm

    What is democracy and what is a republic?

    I was always taken by the conclusions of Tocqueville discussing this issue as he compared America to countries both ancient and 'modern' on the European Continent.

    Yeah I was taught that Athens, a city/state represented pure democracy but as Alexis points out, the Greek’s pure democracy amounted to inclusion of 20,000 human beings along with the exclusion of 330,000 human beings in their democratic model.

    They omitted this fact in my middle school and high school experience.

    I recall from my high school Latin that the Brothers Gracchi of Ancient Rome—who resembled our Kennedy Brothers in my readings—lobbied for land redistribution among the masses and for more inclusion of peoples into their society. Both of the Gracchi were clubbed to death after they had reached ultimate power and of course the Kennedy Brothers were shot.

    The point to be made is that the vast majority of humans residing in Rome by the time of the Caesars were slaves or members of the Latin version of the unwashed.

    So the battle between the plebeians and the patricians was a battle between the top 5% of the population and the 5% of the Roman population who represented the mercantile class. (I have to add here that the Gracchi Brothers were seeking more suffrage as far as a percentage of the Roman population than just Plebeians and Patricians)

    America, to my mind, represented the achievements of the mercantile class; the monied class.

    So the mercantile class had to come up with a plan and a propaganda that would somehow turn this new aristocracy into a meritocracy in the mind of the masses. But you had to keep the masses participation in the new democracy to a minimum.

    The capitalists during the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia were more worried about the peasants revolting than the slaves revolting.

    That is why only propertied owners could vote for their state legislatures and that the state legislatures would vote in the Senators to represent them in Congress. At least this was the case in most of the colonies. This idea will never completely go away even though we have a 17th Amendment forbidding this type of ignominy.

    In the category of initiatives that are going nowhere fast, Louie Gohmert, a Republican representative from Texas, wants to repeal the 17th Amendment and go back to having senators appointed by state legislators, rather than directly elected. http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/03/appointing_senators

    Get it? Republicanism.

    The further you could remove the human being from the electoral process, the easier it would be to get representatives in Congress who would bow to the needs of the mercantile class.

    When you read the tomes written by folks like Calhoun; this South Carolina Senator (where else would this pig come from?) would go on and on speaking about republicanism in the context of Rome; ancient Rome. And this was the case for many Southern politicians and professors.

    But Senator Calhoun did not accept such a bold justification for the destruction of slavery. In an 1837 speech that would come to represent the political and racial ideology of the South throughout the following tumultuous years, Calhoun proclaimed that slavery—not freedom for all—defined the Union. Calhoun argued that slave labor, peculiar as it had become to the American South, had formed "the most solid and durable foundation on which to rear free and stable political institutions."24 In other words, Calhoun and many other southerners believed that the enslavement of black people provided for a more just and democratic society for white people. A seemingly weak argument, perhaps, but the South Carolinian cited history as proof and noted that the relationship between master and servant is one that had characterized all "civilized" societies dating back to ancient Greece and Rome.
    http://www.shmoop.com/causes-of-civil-war/race.html

     Now the Southern states have worked for this Greek/Roman model to keep as many revolting peasants off of the electoral screen and the New South and the conservative West are echoing those sentiments today; even in the face of Civil Rights Legislation over the last five decades as well as Constitutional Amendments.

    The right will always seek to limit the definition of who actually qualifies to be a citizen. http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/strategist/2010/08/behind_the_gop_anchor_babies_s.php

    Many Southern and Western States have worked hard to keep the revolting peasants off of the election lists. http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2011/03/poll-exams-poll-taxes-voter-id-same-purpose-voter-suppression-the-gop-plans-for-2012/

    The South had worked for Poll taxes where only those who paid fees could vote. The 24th Amendment makes this practice illegal today. http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h425.html

    The South had worked for literacy tests, so that only those able to correctly answer mandated test questions, could vote. http://www1.cuny.edu/portal_ur/content/voting_curriculum/11th_pdfs/11th%20Lesson%206_Voting%20%2866-75%29.pdf

    Now, the more conservative legislatures are attempting to keep college students from voting, those without paid for I.D.'s to vote, and to keep those without proper Providence from voting. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/03/video-foolish-college-kids-jus.html but this type of talk from the fascists might lead to unconstitutional action on the part of the state in violation of the 26th Amendment. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/mount-sterling-ky/T37OJR6EHA3C9NSJ8/p2

    In many states it is difficult if not impossible for a rehabilitated felon to vote. This classification relates to more than five million people and their ability to vote. http://felonvoting.procon.org/

    Many on the right would bar people on welfare from voting. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/mount-sterling-ky/T37OJR6EHA3C9NSJ8/p2

    Anything that the repubs can do to limit the number of voters in any election has been enacted or proffered as far as proposed legislation. http://poseycountydemocrats.com/voting%20info.htm

    The right wing plutocrats always seek to limit the vote.

    The republicans always seek to limit the number of citizens who will be able to breach the courthouse doors.

    The republicans will always seek to redefine citizenship.

    The republicans will always seek to keep those who have lost their citizenship through incarceration from ever voting in state or national elections.

    The republicans will always seek to extort the upper class mercantile class for more money to keep them in office by brainwashing the masses into thinking that they are part of the formula.

    The republicans will always seek to reduce the number of governmental workers who work for the benefit of the peasant class.

    The Greek/Roman model of 'democracy' and 'republic' will always be with us!

     

    ….....................................

    POSTSCRIPT

    The 1787 delegates practiced a wide range of high and middle-status occupations, and many pursued more than one career simultaneously. They did not differ dramatically from the Loyalists, except they were generally younger and less senior in their professions.[8] Thirty-five had legal training, though not all of them practiced law. Some had also been local judges.[9]

    • At the time of the convention, 13 men were merchants: Blount, Broom, Clymer, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Shields, Gilman, Gorham, Langdon, Robert Morris, Pierce, Sherman, and Wilson.

    • Six were major land speculators: Blount, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Gorham, Robert Morris, and Wilson.

    • Eleven speculated in securities on a large scale: Bedford, Blair, Clymer, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Franklin, King, Langdon, Robert Morris, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, and Sherman.

    • Twelve owned or managed slave-operated plantations or large farms: Bassett, Blair, Blount, Butler, Carroll, Jenifer, Jefferson, Mason, Charles Pinckney, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Rutledge, Spaight, and Washington. Madison also owned slaves, as did Franklin, who later freed his slaves and was a key founder of the Pennsylvania Anti-Slavery Society. Alexander Hamilton was opposed to slavery and, with John Jay and other anti-slavery advocates, helped to found the first African free school in New York City. Jay helped to found the New York Manumission Society, Hamilton was an officer, and when Jay was governor of New York in 1798 he signed into law the state statute ending slavery as of 1821.

    • Broom and Few were small farmers.

    • Eight of the men received a substantial part of their income from public office: Baldwin, Blair, Brearly, Gilman, Livingston, Madison, and Rutledge.

    • Three had retired from active economic endeavors: Franklin, McHenry, and Mifflin.

    • Franklin and Williamson were scientists, in addition to their other activities.

    • McClurg, McHenry, and Williamson were physicians, and Johnson was a college president.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States

     

    First draft @ http://onceuponaparadigm.wordpress.com/2011/04/14/suffrage/

     

    Comments

    Two points.

    First, there are plenty of shady slicksters in Congress who are cleverly manipulating voters. Gohmert isn't one of them. It's not because he's a good guy. It's because he's a moron, dumbest person on the Hill. Remember terrorist babies? Half the shit that comes out of his mouth doesn't even make sense.

    Second, I like this piece, but I think it misunderstands the way the political parties work. The top priority of the Republican Party is identical to the top priority of the Democratic Party--power. That's not just because politicians are power-hungry, though many of them are; power is what enables you to achieve your agenda.

    So what you will find is that political parties tend to support any policy that enhances their power and oppose any policy that threatens it.

    Do you think that Democratic politicians really care about college students' and felons' voting rights? Bullshit. They might rationalize it that way, but the real reason they support their rights is because they calculate that college students and felons are more likely to vote Democratic. If that weren't the case, they'd find a reason to explain why students and felons should not vote.

    Same thing with Republicans. They would have no problem with students, felons, or poor blacks voting if they thought that they would vote Republican.

    Those literacy tests you mentioned that were so popular among Southern Democrats? In the 19th century, it was Northern Republicans who championed literacy tests. The post-Reconstruction Democrats sought to disenfranchise blacks (who of course voted Republican). The 19th century Republicans sought to disenfranchise immigrants, particularly Catholic immigrants (who of course voted Democrat).

    It's not elitism. It's just dirty, self-serving politics.


    Yeah, sure I get it.

    But I am struck by the number of attacks made by the repubs on the rights of the voter.

    And the repubs are for minority interests; the richest and the fattest corporations

    They are the party of patricians and they do not like the fact that the peasants can vote.

    the end


    To buttress Genghis' point:

    If I was a reader judging by the content of some of your blogs outside of the context of all of them, I might guess you would support something along the lines of literacy tests wherein people who believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago shouldn't be voting. I often see liberal bloggers bemoan the stupidity and/or gullibiity of the American electorate, their "peasant" stupidity, that we need voters with a higher education level about their choices. Every time I see that, I think of my illiterate grandmother, and all those illiterate voters in places like India or Afghanistan voting for whoever their tribal elder or husband tells them to, for that matter.  It's one of the very difficult things about democracy, that voters can and will be manipulated by many other things rather than objective information.

    Edit to add: You seem to be making a bit of a case against the founding fathers here going for a republic of the educated, with a lot of space between the madding crowd and the actual legislative power. But many of them had a lot of righteous fear of the power of demagogues; Glen Beck types were abundant among preachers of the day.


    Soooooo..... What you're saying is.... Dick is a lot like the Founding Fathers, and wants the assholes kept out politics. Hmmm.... Gotta think on that for a bit. Fairly high praise. And unusual from you ArtA. But if you say so, ok. "Dick Day - Pretty Much One Of The Founding Fathers."

    I can't let this go, although that was my plan all along. hahahahahaahah

    I was one of those foundling fathers. hahahahah

    We hold these truths to be self evident

    that all sequels are created equal.

    You see my compadres so to speak--although we disallowed Hispanics for obvious reasons--felt that I Dream of Jeanie sequels should reign supreme.

    Then, I mean the Honeymooners, just never caught on.

    But Jesus, I mean the Matrix, and the Rings and a...that Ark guy, and so many others were super equals when you think about it!

    But would they take my script for the Graduate II? Of course not and I think that had to do with the grassy knoll.

    And then, I had this Maverick III and of course, as I would have predicted that anti semetic prick would never let that fly.

    Oh I was there, during the Golden Era of TV and they all just eschewed me, like some left over bacon with mold on it--I mean how the fuck can you get mold on bacon I used to ask.

    Oh well..

    Basic Cable and a kitchen and a portable...what more can a foundling ask for?


    This comment sounds like yet another exercise in false equivalency. Or do you have a bunch of late-20th Century examples of liberals and Democrats using the legislative and criminal justice systems to limit people's access to the voting booth that you're not sharing?

    I am not getting this either. hahahahaha

    I suppose democrats are against making corporations persons and against giving corporations the rights that should be accorded to human citizens. hahaha

    But, at least I am getting some discussion going.

    I mean just take a look at the Ryan plan for a fascist America getting through the House sooner than later or the pile of bills just burned by the Governor of Montana (C's blog) or the pile of bills recently passed in Wisconsin, Ohio, Texas, and a score of other states controled by the repubs and tell me what in the hell any of these bills have to do with concern for the welfare of 70% or more of the citizenry.

    There is a war going on out there.

    I was just interested in looking at one aspect of this war, the battle for suffrage.

     


    That was not point.

    Richard offered a hypothesis about Republicans' motive for voter suppression -- to obtain/sustain a plutocracy.

    I disputed his hypothesis and offered an alternative -- to obtain/sustain Republican Party power. I used examples from the past to make my point.


    Political warfare instead of class warfare.

    You put it like that and It is an interesting point.

    The dems are more interested in seeing their party win than any concern over the welfare of the citizens; just as the repubs are more interested in their party...

    I don't know, I have to ponder this for awhile. Maybe I just am less interested in motivation than results.

    I just know that there have been great losses over the last three decades for the working classes and the poor while the corporations are grabbing more and more power and money. And the legislation in the House and in a score of state legislatures controlled by the repubs are exasperating this trend.


    True that, and tragic


    Yeah as Brew suggests, if you're going to make an equivalence between a party that seeks to expand suffrage, and a party that seeks to limit it - both formally and informally (through voter intimidation tactics) - then I think you've got a problem. The dems are corrupt and what have you, but they have much more respect for the principles and values of democracy. The GOP does not.

    Unless of course you have evidence the Dems are equally zealous in efforts to suppress GOP voters.


    As I wrote above, equivalency was not my point.

    Nonetheless, we have no evidence demonstrating Dem's profound respect for suffrage independent of the electoral advantage it brings them. Anti-suffrage campaigns have always targeted minorities and/or the poor, both of which are modern Democratic constituences. So of course, Democrats support expanding the vote as much possible.

    We do, however, have plenty of historical evidence of both parties seeking to repress whichever demographic favored the other party.


    There was this, however, way back in 2000:

    Last week, Mark Herron, a Tallahassee attorney hired by the Democratic Party, sent a five-page letter to other attorneys across the state with tips on challenging the validity of the overseas ballots.

    ...

    But in Duval County, where more than two-thirds of the overseas absentee votes received after Nov. 7 favored Bush, all 141 of the ballots thrown out were from military personnel.

    Of course, the Republicans were even worse in this affair, but that just bolsters my point: Politicians will do whatever they can get away with to get their party into power.


    It does remind me of the justice system which has the ultimate goal through trials of discovering the truth through evidence, yet the two primary sides in a case intend generally to only present the evidence which benefits their position regarding what the truth is.  It is not a perfect system, and there is a lot of abuse, but when both sides are provided a relatively equal playing field, the truth is somehow teased out through the adversarial process.  In the same way, every constituency group will have one of the two parties fighting for them.  So as long as one party is not given to much strength for too long...the problem with many states is that this isn't the case.


    But surely you can't carry this comparison too far, Trope. I mean, otherwise, you'd be suggesting that MONEY could potentially be influencing the course of Justice, and... Wait.

    It does sometimes.  I know this because I've seen episodes of Law & Order in which this happened. 


    All politicians take an oath never to take bribes except for Issa of course, and the guy with the frozen money.

    I read it in National Review or someplace like that!


    I know, I know, "And stop calling me Shirley."

    In general, G, seems to me at most of your evidence is going to be... hidden. Because you can pretty much extend your argument to say that victory for their Party, and getting elected, is the core explanation and likely motivation for MOST things pols do, right? As long as we discuss victorious politicians, your thesis wipes out most other motivations. So what we need to look more closely at is... The subset of failed politicians, who acted against their electoral interests... And perhaps corrupt politicians, whose secret actions reveal their deeper allegiances, and, once revealed, are likely to hurt their chances of election... Or little known but highly-principled bills... That sort of thing. And with the power of money being what it is, we can often even tart up the worst instances of palm-greasing as just a "reality," where the pol recognizes the need for money to win campaigns. Which is why I think people so often ADD in the questions of personal motivation, or even of "objective interest served" ---- in addition to, "wanting their party to win." Is is making any sense? Just puzzling it through....

    See my comment to Obey about why election motivation is particularly relevant to this example.

    As for evaluating political righteousness (if such a thing still exists), yeah, you'd have to look at a cases when righteous action is misaligned with electoral expedience.


    Thanks for the link. But still kinda thin gruel, no? One dem attorney in Tallahassee on the one side, on the other ... a top-down campaign to destroy the DOJ civil rights division, massive pressure on US Attorneys to gin up voter fraud charges. To which I might add a vast difference in the use of hard-ball dirty tricks high up in the RNC. I don't have any links lying around, so feel free to tell me I'm wrong on anything there.

    But more generally, I think the whole incentives-based perspective on the issue can sometimes be enlightening but it has its limits. For one thing, it is highly reductive. And it does - by its very nature end up making moral equivalence. For instance you end up saying that the Dem party's work for things like universal health care or civil rights or preserving social security is 'just to gain power' as much as the GOP's efforts to suppress votes, demonize immigrants and the black community and otherwise misdirect and demagogue issues in the interests of divisiveness. Hell I know a guy who wrote a whole book on that stuff... And he seemed to think they weren't playing quite the same game as the Dems.

    For another thing, incentives are highly indeterminate, aren't they. There was nothing that said back in 2005 that the GOP had to be rabidly anti-immigration. In fact, electorally -in pure 'power' terms - they perhaps had a strong incentive to be the party of pro-immigration - take a huge chunk of the dem base by appealing to socially conservative latinos. But they opted for the nativist demonization of immigrants, which then ends up leaning their incentives towards voter suppression.

    So in short, I think the simple incentives based model makes one miss a lot of the picture here when evaluating the context. Sure - maybe one can say that the GOP as a collective has no explicit goal of undermining the power of the people in favor of a narrow elite. But explicit intentions aren't everything. There is a vast difference in respect for the principles of democracy here, how far the parties choose - in their quest for power - to stay within certain bounds of decency in their actions.


    Well said. And that book, I think I remember it. "Blowing Junior: Why Grandma's Hand-jobs Just Aren't Doing It Anymore." Something like that. By some guy with a funny name. Michael Wolraicnefeinfeldterich. Yeah, that's it.

    That's a fair point, and I confess that my hypothesis is both reductive and simplistic (though less so than the one I challenged). There are of course many exceptions and competing factors, and I agree that the reason the Republicans don't have a minority constitiuency in the first place is because they have embraced racism and xenophobia.

    That said, I think that this example offers a strong rationale for incentive-based analysis because it's so close to the election machinery. That is to say, when we're talking about platforms and ideologies and narratives, we're a bit removed from the voting, and there are many influences and motivations. But votes are like oxygen to politicians, and the incentives are much greater when it comes to counting them. That's why politicians so frequently go nuts in disputed elections, coming up with any excuse they can muster to invalidate their opponents' votes.

    So I took as rather obvious that Republicans are suppressing votes in order to get ther candidates elected. And my cynical view of human nature is such that I believe that plenty of Democrats would do it too if the incentives were reversed.


    Sure. Incentives loom large when it comes to messing with votes and suffrage. Granted. And, I'm not one to shy away from cynicism when it concerns politicians and their motivations.

    But, I still don't accept the counterfactual - i.e. that if Democratic pols found themselves on the wrong side of the suffrage issue, they would act the same way.

    Politicians don't just fall into parties by chance. You choose to run as a Dem, you get chosen by the party apparatus to run for them, in part on the basis of your values. And you choose to side with the dems, in part because of ... their position on the suffrage issue. People who don't want to be involved in vote suppression, in undermining the voice and the welfare of the weak and the poor, will generally opt for the Democratic party.

    I.e. in formal terms, there is no possible world in which your antecedent holds, so your whole counterfactual is void. If Dem pols found themselves on the wrong sid eof the suffrage issue, they wouldn't ... be recognizably DEMOCRATS at all.


    If I may jump in here.  I find myself reluctantly agreeing with Obey.  Reluctantly because I wish everyone had noble intentions, but I know that some just do not regardless of party.  But, if you will recall the recent Wisconsin SC election and the questionable vote count, it seems there is going to be an investigation of County Clerk Kathy Nickolaus going back 5 years because of vote irregularities in her county.  Her connections to the Republican party are undeniable.

    In the back story to this, there is some questionable activities by Democrats as well, but the bulk of the misdeeds appear to fall onto the Republican side.


    You know Flower, I think it was this Wisc contest that got me thinking about issues related to this blog!


    People who don't want to be involved in vote suppression, in undermining the voice and the welfare of the weak and the poor, will generally opt for the Democratic party.

    I concede the latter point about the welfare of the weak and poor--which defines the modern Democratic Party--but not the former, which is a consequence of it. And I don't find it that difficult to imagine a counterfactual, especially since the Democratic Party was involved in voter suppression a few decades backs. But since it's a counterfactual, there's not much point in arguing the case.


    I'm curious.  What particular Democratic Party voter suppression from a few decades back are you referring to?


    This is late and probably irrelevent.

    But I really feel that the repubs look for a way to individually grasp power. And the dems, for the most part got into the fray from experiencing how the system just fails people.

    Are the dems all pure? No.

    But are the repubs all tainted? yes.

    The repubs never cared...ever!

    Now the Black conservatives; supposedly I have no standing to opine. But I will anyway.

    Michael Steele was shunned by dems somewhere in the process and said fuck you!

    Justice Thomas was really, really shunned by dems somewhere and said fuck you!

    Steele still wishes to sound reasonable.

    Thomas does not give one good shite. Fuck you! I married a white girl and I got all the mojo to kill everybody in my way.

    And yet Thomas has not the guts, has not the courage to openly opine his views. Never. He will not even comment during arguments. He is as bad as the worst white nazi who ever lived.

    I despise Scalia...if he died of a heart attack tomorrow I would cheer.

    Thomas is everything Obama has ever been accused of and yet he will never ever come to our President's defense. He is truly mentally deranged. He has separated all emotion from any logical conclusion and yet he believes in no logic at all except for his own engrandisement.

    And when Bush 41 was confronted; fuck you I will find the most Nazi assed black in the entire world and shove it up your ass!

    And that is exactly what a reasonable, moderate repub will always do!

    There have been articles over the last five decades claiming the sanctity of certain districts; expecially when speaking of the conservative House Seats and we have seen swings that are out of the realm of the pollsters imagination.

    I have no doubt that 25% of this country would go back to lynching Negroes at the drop of a hat.

    I have no doubt that 35% of the country would double the prison population at a drop of a hat.

    I have no doubt that 40% of the population in this country would limit voting to all those who own land. Even if a strong proportion of that 40% never even owned land.

    The repubs aim has always been the same over 70 years or more:

    Grab all the minorities you can who can be bribed and put them 'out front'.

    Pretend that the republican party will get everyone a paying job.

    Cut all taxes for the extremely rich because then the rich will become our friends and help us out in our hour of need.

    Keep as many classifications as you can away from the polls--thanks Karl!

    Buy up as much of the media as you can to prevent any other messages being distributed to the public. Cut out cable, cut out web, cut out any dissention that you possibly can.

    Keep as many folks as you can from any participation in the increases of the economy.

    Never ever ever admit mistakes.

    Never ever admit that lies were told.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_art_of_war

    Never worrry about the state of the economy as it affects the masses; never ever worrry about the health of the masses; never ever worry about the general welfare of the masses.

    And always depend upon the Darwinian model; except in cases of the religious right that foments the fears of the masses.

    the end


    "So I took as rather obvious that Republicans are suppressing votes in order to get ther candidates elected. And my cynical view of human nature is such that I believe that plenty of Democrats would do it too if the incentives were reversed."

    But shouldn't you blame the party that has engaged in widespread voter suppression, and not lump the other in as equally blameworthy simply because of your "belief" as to what they might do?  Why do you allow your cynicism to excuse the Republicans for their utter venality on this issue, and fall again into the trap of false equivalency?  


    Where in this thread did I excuse Republicans for suppressing the vote? Where did I defend them? Must I thump my chest and shout that Republicans are evil in every comment? Is it a crime against liberalism to suppose that most politicians are scheming manipulators?


    Two points in response: first, you are making an equivalence between actual voter suppression by the Republicans and theoretical voter suppression by the Democrats when you say that Democrats would engage in it if it was in their interest.  I prefer to condemn those who are guilty of actually committing crimes, or at least bad acts, rather than saying that I don't care about those crimes or bad acts because those I otherwise support might engage in it if they see and advantage in doing so.  If you pooh-pooh Republican voter suppression in this fashion, yes you are excusing it; you;re saying it's not that bad because the Democrats have in the distant past and might theoretically again at some point engage in the same behavior that Republicans are guilty of right now.

    Second, at this point, anyone who makes ethical comparisons between the two parties is either woefully misinformed, so cynical that they have lost any capacity for judging whether someone or something is ethical or not, or a propagandist for the Republican Party.  You don't have to be a strong supporter of the Democratic Party, or even a Democrat, to see that there is simply no comparison between the two.

    So no, you don't have to denounce the Republican Party in every comment, as long as you refrain from pretending that the Democrats are just as bad.  By asserting that most politicians are scheming manipulators, without noting that the ethical, "good" politicians can be found exclusively in one of the two parties, you are unfairly spreading blame in a manner whose only effect is to increase the cynicism about politics, and to smear the good politicians along with the bad.  It's lazy, it's inaccurate,and it's destructive.  If you want to promote a better politics, you shouldn't do it.   


    If by pooh-pooh, you mean: "failed to vociferously attack Republicans with great self-righteous fervor," than I confess to pooh-poohing. I leave it to the judges to decide whether I am guilty of a) woeful ignorance, b) dangerously nihilistic cynicism, c) Republican propaganda, or d) all of the above.

    And thank you for the sage wisdom. I will make every effort to promote a better politics by denigrating Republicans and never ever ever ever ever comparing them to Democrats again. Maybe I'll even write a book denigrating Republicans and not comparing them to Democrats. Though it cannot make up for such lazy, inaccurate, destructive comments on a blog thread, it's a start.


    Is that you, Karl?


    Genghis; here are some talking points for you:

     

     

     Remember the 'asshole' part, okay?


    What a dishonest response; no one's challenging your comments here because you "failed to vociferously attack Republicans with great self-righteous fervor;" you're being challenged because you explicitly stated that there was no difference between Republicans and Democrats on the issue of voter suppression.

    And while I haven't read your book, you certainly seem to be working double-time to establish your reasonable liberal cred through lame "both sides do it" comments on this blog.  


    Now you're catching on, Genghis.  You (not everyone here) are required (on penalty of losing your right to vote) to profess (while thumpingly your chest wildly):

    REPUBLICANS ARE EVIL!

    SLAVERY IS EVIL!

    HUGO CHAVEZ IS EVIL!

    (you're allowed to remain agnostic on the Kardashians)

     

     

     


    You really should stay out of exchanges between other people when your only contribution is a rhetorical sticking out of the tongue and a "Yeah! What he said!"  It's at the top of a long list of what makes your internet personality one of the most repellent I've ever met.


    Why does this comment remind me of a song?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxwLQmPHkT8


    LOL!  Ya gotta explain THAT, kyle flynn!  I thought it was more like this.


    That one would get me in trouble with the headmaster.


    Ack!  You didn't explain why the Keith Urban (my first, by the by...)


    And you really should see about getting a Humor Transplant, Brew.  Especially one of those 'Being Able to Engage in Just a Tad of Self-depracatory Humor' kinds. 

    Shorter: Lighten up, dude!


    My sense of humor is fine.  You just aren't funny.  At least not when you try to be.


    Except for Hugo...

    YES!

    Oh and I do have to admit I hate Kardashians too!


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