Michael Maiello's picture

    A New, Democratic Bull Market For Treasuries?

    A big fear among investors and people running actual businesses in the U.S. is that at some point, interest rates must rise from historic lows.  This must happen, in part, because nothing lasts forever.  But behind that truism, there is a lot that could cause rates to rise.

    By rates here we mean the rate of interest paid on an oustanding piece of 10-year Treasury debt.  That rate is a function of the bond's market price and the coupon paid at issue.  If you buy the bond when it was issued, you pay par and you get the promised coupon (let's say it's 2 percent).  If your friend has that bond and really needs the money and you buy it from them at 50 cents on the dollar, what was a 2% coupon to him is a 4% interest rate to you.  He loaned the Treasury $100 at 2% interest.  You basically loaned the Treasury $50, but at 2% interest on $100.  Apologies if this is too rudimentary but it's important to get out of the way.  A lot of very smart people (*raises hand*) do no understand how bonds work and yet the basics are often not included when people talk about them.  Anyway, the very basic example above is what we mean by "rising rates."

    The 10 year Treasury is a benchmark for other types of loans because it is considered "risk free," because the U.S. will never not pay its debts.  Let's say that Doc Cleveland, Michael Wolraich, Ramona and the U.S. Treasury all want to borrow your money.  The Treasury says it will pay you 2% and that there is not way ever that you will not get a promised interest payment or get your money back when it is due.  If the Treasury will pay you 2%, what do Cleveland, Ramona and Wolraich have to pay you?  Trick question.  The answer is 2%.  Because these are 4 institutions that will never let you down.  If the NRA wants to borrow money, though, the answer is a million percent because they the NRA will borrow your money and then spend it all on guns and when you ask for them to pay you back as promised, they will shoot you.

    Things become complicated if people stop believing that the Treasury is as trustworthy as Doc, Michael and Mona.  If people in Congress, with the power to muck up the works, keep edging the government toward default then people are going to eventually start questioning the Treasury's promises.  That means the Treasury looks a lot more like the NRA.  Except that the Treasury has the Pentagon so if it decides, for some reason, not to pay you back, you really have no defense against a Cruz missile.  That means that people will pay less and less for Treasury bonds and, as we saw above, the less you pay for a bond, the higher its interest rate.  The cost of borrowing skyrockets.  Pretty soon, the budget is either all going towards interest payments or there is a real default.

    The good news is that Democrats are putting a stop to it by challenging far right and Tea Party candidates to make pledges not to shut down the government or allow the debt ceiling to be breached.  If Democrats can force this issue and get the radical right on record before their candidates are even elected, well... that solves a big part of the Treasury bill confidence problem right there.  If that problem is solved then Treasury prices can stay high and that means rates can stay low.  That keeps the federal budget out of jeopardy.  If Democrats can stoke a bond bull market on the campaign trail, that could be a significant and I'll bet overlooked, event in the contemporary economy.

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    Comments

    I'd be willing to trust Ramona and Dr. C, but Genghis? It's not like I'm an anti-Hunnite, but after what he did to the Jin et al.? I think I might feel safer with the NRA.


    Let me put this delicately. You will be much, much safer if you pay me the money. Чи ойлгож байна уу?

    PS Genghis is not a f-ing Hun, asshat


    Bah, all you nomads look alike to me.

    P.S. How did you generate a translation for Чи ойлгож байна уу? I can tell it's Mongolian, but that's about it…


    Uncle Sam told me


    If interest rates do rise - despite the best efforts of the Fed to keep them low - will the US be able to make its payments?


    The interest rate the US pays is set when the bill, note, bond is originally sold. It will not change for the duration of the loan. If rates go up, only new borrowings would be affected by them.

    What MM described is what happens to bond yields (interest rates) when they are traded in a secondary or after market.

     


    Though, those secondary market prices will help determine what the Treasury has to pay at first issue.  So it can make borrowing expensive going forward.


    Didn't I say that?


    Toldja I didn't get it. :)


    By definition, yes.  The U.S. can always make its payments.  It could change tax policy, it could change the money supply, it could do both, but it will be able to make its payments.

    However, I'm glad you brought it up because there is a rosy scenario.  Rates can rise because people are fleeing Treasury bills (bad) or they can rise because people are gaining confidence in the economy so that lending to a business at some risk seems like not such a bad idea.  If that is the reason that people are selling Treasuries, rates will still rise but the economy will be growing.  Growing economy means more taxes collected without changing anything.  Then, if interest rates rise but more slowly than the rate of economic growth, we start gaining ground on our debt.  It's a happy cycle!


    Nice humblebrag.

    "A lot of very smart people (*raises hand*) do no understand how bonds work and yet the basics are often not included when people talk about them. "

    Yes, bonds are confusing. One thing that makes understanding hard is you usually have to stop and think about whether someone is talking about bond prices or yields when they say the bond market is going up or down. Prices going up means yields are going down and vice versa. Then you have to think about which way is better for who and under what circumstances. Makes my eyes cross.

    But if you think bond traders necessarily understand them any better, let me dispel you of that notion with a typical post from one of them who does seem to know the market, or at least its players, quite well. Emphasis mine:

    The march to lower yields continues and the 10 year note has breached resistance at 2.55. That is the lowest yield on the issue since late June and the charts suggest a run to the 2.47 percent level. I am not a technician and do not pretend to be but that is an interesting level for Fibonacci fans. On May 2 the yield on the 10 year note was 1.62 percent. The yield marched higher and touched 3.00 percent briefly in early September. That is a move of 138 basis points. The move from 3.00 to 2.47, if it happens,is 53 basis points,which lo and behold is a Fibonacci favorite 38 percent move. Yields are getting steamy down at these levels but I believe that traders who went home short against 2.60 resistance will observe the sustained trading at yields below 2.60 and will terminate those trades. The next important data point for market participants will be the shutdown deferred September labor report on Tuesday. I have always believed that the labor report is a focal point which exacerbates moves. Nothing goes up in a straight line but I would not be surprised if we see the highest prices/lowest yields late Monday night or early Tuesday morning in ahead of the release.
     
    The belly of the Treasury curve continues to be the beneficiary of this move. When I wrote early Tuesday morning after the holiday the 5 year/10 year spread was 128 basis points and the 10 year/30 year spread was 105 basis points. As we speak the 5s/10s is now about 125 basis points (3 basis points flatter) and the 10s/30s is nearly 108 basis points (3 basis points steeper). The 5s 10s 30s butterfly which I suggested was cheap at 23 basis points is hovering around 17 basis points.
     
    Dealers report that clients were better buyers of the belly of the curve in the overnight session.
    Fibonacci? See, you don't have to know anything more to play the bond market than the lottery but you will have to have access to a whole lot more money. Note the expected profits are quoted in basis points  - 100ths of a percent.
     

    Color me lost. None of those numbers mentioned appear in the Fibonacci sequence, near as I can tell…


    Note that he said he was not a technician (market timer) when he described some of those traders as Fibonacci fans. They are traders who have systems not unlike some lottery players who have magic number. Financial numerologists. He was being humorous but accurate.

    I remember a chartist who traded based on angles revealed by a system of lines he drew on a chart. Watching him do that made me think of i-ching or entrail reading. ;/ 

     


    Gotcha. So you're basically saying that many traders have the same system mentality that gamblers have, which makes sense when you think about it. (I.e., that they'd have something (else) in common with gamblers.)


    Nice riff, Michael.

    If I issue a Mora-bond to Mona for 10K at 5% interest and a tree falls on me in the forest which she doesn't hear, do I still owe her the interest?


    I think at that point the bond becomes moribund.


    There might be a market for moribunds.


    Leave me out of this.  I know nothing about money.  You could not ever in this lifetime borrow from me (empty pockets and a complete and total distaste for high finance).  But if a tree falls on you in the forest I hope I'm around to save you.


    Awe, I hope so too.


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