Michael Maiello's picture

    Last Night, Police Shut Down All Live Feeds from Ferguson (Open Thread)

    By Michael Maiello on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 6:35am | Politics

    They had already blocked mainstream media from the town.  Now, Jezebel reports that all live feeds have been shut down. That means that police have successfully intimidated or forced citizen journalists to give up, for a time.  By the time you read this, I'm sure some will be back up, But this is amazingly chilling.

    Let's make this an open thread, I know you all have a lot to say.

    Topics: 
    Politics

    Comments

    This is definitely overreach and will backfire. The only question is, how soon?


    by Verified Atheist on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 8:18am

    The rioting made it easy to lose sight if the murder. The police action has placed the focus back on the police. The manhandling of reporters places the MSM in the position that many minorities experienced.

    Police operate as occupying force rather than servants of the public. The mayor and police chief are not in control.

     


    by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 8:31am

    If you read the responses from the spokespeople you are indeed left with the impression that a segment of the population just randomly started provoking the police.  I recall something from last night where one of them said they were showing "remarkable restraint," which is something you say when you are the aggrieved party.


    by Michael Maiello on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 9:15am

    Of course, it's also something you say when you want to pretend to be the aggrieved party. I'm trying to keep an open mind on the topic, but I am definitely biased against the SWAT mentality that is unfortunately so prevalent these days.

    Edit to add: This is not to say that your mind is closed. Quite the contrary, I'm sure, and I'm always interested in hearing your insight.


    by Verified Atheist on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 9:35am

    When I try to take the police POV here, I figure that there are a few reasons to say something like this.

    1) I get that most of the protesters are peaceful but they have to let us do our jobs and stop the lawbreaking few.

    2) Why are you protesting now?  We don't even know if the Brown shooting was unjustified yet. the anger at us might be misplaced.

    3) Most of us were sent here from other police forces to protect your property and lives, why don't you just listen to us for once? Also, see point 2.

    I don't buy any of these rationales but I can imagine people using them to justify doing their jobs.  You're right about keeping an open mind.  There are bad eggs among the police as well but most of them are not justifying their behavior by openly celebrating the opportunity to commit violence or to act out a fascist fantasia.


    by Michael Maiello on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 10:13am

    So... the FBI is investigating the shooting of Michael Brown but does anybody have any sense of whether or not the feds are doing anything about the current conduct of the police?  From my understanding, police forces from outsides of Ferguson have assembled to deal with the unrest, and this must be part of the problem -- no clear chain of command, police officers in unfamiliar territory, overblown rhetoric and, of course, the dusting off of a bunch of old military weapons that these locals bought without ever thinking they'd get used.

    Sounds like it's time to nationalize the National Guard to bring the police under control. Or at least to credibly threaten to do so.


    by Michael Maiello on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 9:34am

    People need to lose their badges over this. And there needs to be jail time for some people. Not long prison stretches, except for Michael Brown's killer. But arrests and trials on the charges of false arrest and, if necessary, civil rights violations.

    (What civil rights violations? Free assembly, free speech, freedom of the press. For a start.)

    And several commanding officers, including the St. Louis County chief if police, who was in charge last night, need to resign or be fired.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 4:26pm

    Listening to Gov. Nixon and others at the press conference, it seems they are still too busy praising the various law enforcement personnel and departments to bother with technicalities like accountability.


    by barefooted on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 4:41pm

    Yes, except that Nixon did replace the police commander on the scene. 

    It was "The county police chief has been doing a great job. So I'm sending him home and putting someone else in charge."

    Politicians have to say the polite thing. (Those two words have the same root for a reason.) as always with politicians, compare what they say with what they actually do.

    I couldn't be happier with last night's outcome. That's how the real police do it.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 1:54pm

    There's no question that the change in command and control was essential, and highly successful. Thankfully. Yet, does that that change erase previous action? I absolutely agree that actions speak louder than words - does it not follow that there should be accountability for those actions? In this instance, it would be a good start to not praise them as they're relegated to yesterday's news.


    by barefooted on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 3:06pm

    Oh, of course not. I still want the St. Louis County chief and Ferguson chief fired. One of the many reasons I'm happy to see good policing in Ferguson is that it highlights how badly things had been botched by the previous clowns.

    Politicians tend to say things, during moments of crisis, that will get results. They prioritize fixing problems over telling the truth. Back during Katrina, Senator Landrieu from Louisiana would routinely say positive things about how FEMA, etc., was handling the emergency, even though FEMA et al had turned a disaster into a giant catastrophe. And people watching were annoyed by that. But she said those things because busting on FEMA, right then, would only have made things worse. So she gladhanded them. It wasn't the truth, but it was the right thing to do. She said whatever would most effectively get her constituents help.

    What Nixon did is the politician's equivalent of being polite to customer-service people when you have a complaint. The truth may be that the company you're talking to are morons who've screwed you because they can't do anything right, and they deserve to be told off. But telling them off doesn't fix your problem, and you really need your problem fixed, so you're polite to the culpable idiots for as long as it takes to get you what you need.

    If Nixon had called out the county chief of police as the incompetent racist imbecile that he is, maybe that chief digs in his heels and fights to stay in charge of policing the protests. Even if the chief loses, Nixon has to spend time and energy dealing with that fight, which means time and energy that can't be spent on other things. And sure, the chief deserves to be humiliated in public, but things in Ferguson would be worse off tonight. Instead, Nixon mumbles some polite bullshit so that the chief can save face (although everybody knows the real score), and Nixon achieves his primary goal of the day: no more tear gas, rubber bullets or stun grenades.

    Politicians can be weasels, but this is when they're useful. I don't want to governor with superhuman integrity who lets the violence continue. I'll take the guy who's willing to sling a little transparent BS in order to get the rubber bullets and tear gas out of the picture.


    by Doctor Cleveland on Sat, 08/16/2014 - 1:28am

    There's definitely part of crisis management where, when you're in charge, you can't be railing in public about everything going wrong.  Your job is to assure people who are at risk during the crisis that things are under control.  So, whether it's in public or even in the workplace you'll very often seen people in authority saying, "the team is doing a great job given what it faces," and then a week later you're having, "Now let's make sure we never do such an awful job again," meetings.

    I am glad the FBI is investigating the Brown shooting and I'm glad the Governor stepped up to turn things around in the aftermath but if this doesn't result in a full and open accounting and high level people do not lose their jobs, we can be assured this will happen again and again.


    by Michael Maiello on Sat, 08/16/2014 - 9:59am

    Both you and Doctor Cleveland give good examples of the necessity to sometimes pat the head in public before privately kicking ass. Yes, retaining calm while exercising competent authority can mean spouting undeserved platitudes. Simply put - say what you need to in order to get what you want. And yes, politicians, bosses and disgruntled consumers do it. I get that. Now, back to Gov. Nixon.

    It was completely unnecessary for him to praise the departments, and officers, involved in the atrocities that had occurred. Once he replaced them with the Missouri State Police it was over - the local authorities had no choice. Saying nothing at all about them specifically.would have sufficed.

    Yet maybe, just maybe, if he had taken the lead as a government official and strongly denounced their actions, he would have taken an important first step. Sometimes words do matter.


    by barefooted on Sat, 08/16/2014 - 3:36pm

    Freedom to agitate violence? 

    "Give us the name of the officer" So vigilantes can give the officer, the justice they wholeheartedly believe they should render.

     "Get the rope, punish the spouse if they have one; punish the family; Forget about the rule of law, it doesn't work anyway.   We don't need no facts or trial....... GUILTY" 

    Until the investigation is complete, NO one should be asking anyone to resign or be fired.

    Are we now to extend our rights to anarchy and agitation, because it appears justifiable under some conditions? 

    Edited to add 

    Imagine a video camera, panning the roofs to show SWAT locations, providing information for those bent on violence, trying to overturn the authorities; The SWAT team there to defend the city from mayhem, to prevent the neighborhood from being burned, looted and their citizens attacked in rage.  


    by Resistance on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 7:23pm

    Boy do you have a narrow viewpoint. I understand the fear of releasing the name of the officer, I really do. And, I despise those who are releasing the address and names of relatives of the chief of police. That said, police always release the name of (non-minor) civilians who have killed others, even in self-defense. Are you suggesting that the police are less able to defend themselves than civilians, or are you suggesting that it's OK when civilians die?

    Darkness is the realm of lies and deceit. Light is one of the best antiseptics to lies. You seem so ready to believe what the "thin blue line" is putting out there and so unwilling to consider any other viewpoints. Is it inconceivable that the police are lying? (I'm not convinced they are, but I'm definitely open to the idea.) It's sad how narrow your viewpoint is.


    by Verified Atheist on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 8:10am

    I agree with Doc Cleveland.  

    This winter I had a conversation with some neighbors in this ghettto that ended up wondering when something like this would happen this year and set off a backlash.  But here in Florida we are very aware of the problem that is in some of these police departments. There has been so much abuse directed toward people of color.   


    by trkingmomoe on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 9:18pm

    It is interesting that MSM often treats White murder suspects better than they treat Black victims in headlines, The positive aspects of the White suspect are noted while the Black victim is often blamed for causing his own death.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/media-black-victims_n_5673291.html


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 10:56am

    Actually, I think we treat suspects really badly in general.  Without denying the racial disparity you point out at all, I'd say we generally treat all criminal suspects as guilty before proven and there's a huge double standard at play here which is that criminal suspects in any crime generally have their names released to the public while the name of the police officer who shot Brown is being withheld.


    by Michael Maiello on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 11:11am

    Richard Jewell comes to mind as an example of someone who was very wrongfully tried in the court of public opinion.


    by Verified Atheist on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 12:47pm

    On the other hand right- wing news sources tried tomake tax-dodger Cliven Bundy a hero.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 5:54pm

    Think of it as a different kind of blowback.  Even when you fight wars in countries thousands of miles distant, they still have an eerie way of making the long trip home.

    http://www.tomdispatch.com/


    by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 10:58am

    As a slightly paenthetical side note, it is really bizarre that even after multiple decisions from both state and federal judges affirming the legality of citizens documenting via (photo or video) the conduct of their (police) employees while on the  job, it remains an activity fraught with peril to be on the operating end of a smartphone.

     

    This  even after the Eric Hansen video raised to a level of official policy the failure of the NYC citizen complaint review board to investigate over a thousand allegations of illegal choke hold usage specifically because evience was not adduced (how many times were smart phones crushed underfoot to produce ambiguity?) and Judge Scheindlin has specifically ruled in the stop and frisk leitigation that cops be outfitted with (the now virtually disposably cheap) body cams.

    To date I thknow of NO instance where a cop has been disciplined for inhibiting this sort of documentation either by merenintimidation,, or worse, the arrest of the citizen and/or confiscation of the camera

    What the fuck?

     Surely we are entitled to a clear, enforcable mandate from every Police Commissioner in whatsoever jurisdiction outlawing the free lance censorship that is currently epidemnic.


    by jollyroger on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 1:02pm

    That is interesting.  I think the problem is... there are no actual consequences for an officer who orders me to stop filming something.  I can tell him I know my rights and can still get arrested.  I don't get charged with anything but the officer is likely never punished.  The right to film is, in any event, probably limited if the officer claims that the filming interfered somehow with legitimate police business.  That creates enough ambiguity that a lawsuit after the fact is probably fruitless.

    And, of course, this is the problem with interacting with police in general -- they might be wrong but you still practically have to do what they say because you can ultimately be charged and punished for resisting arrest event if it is clear after the fact that the arrest never should have happened in the first place.


    by Michael Maiello on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 1:10pm

     because you can ultimately be charged and punished  shot and killed.

     

    There, fixed it for you....

     

    Edit to add: any time you are talking to a cop and you find yourself enunciating the word "right(s)", consider yourself to be in deadly peril., and shut the fuck up.


    by jollyroger on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 1:21pm

     because you can ultimately be charged and punished  shot and killed.

     

    There, fixed it for you...

    Man, I was so guilty of blogging while white there...


    by Michael Maiello on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 1:31pm

    Indeed.

     

    The "tell" that times have changed is the disappearance of the "throw down".  Before Giuliani (to take NYC as the prototype)  after the use of deadly force, when interrogated by internal affairs, a cop needed to be able to proffer evidence that the deceased was armed, either with a knife, or better yet, a gun.

     

    Ths, every cop carried an untraceable gun to throw down after a shooting if it turned out to be a "bad kill":

     

    Somewhere in the mid nineties, the replacement of the throw down by any old story (he reached for his wallet-Diallo, I saw a glint (the kid with the candy bar, I forget his name) etc meant that the oversight that a cop could anticipate had completely disappeared, with the predictable result.

     

    Edit to add: to apply this analysis to the instant case, note that the unarmed teenager is alleged to have :"struggled for the cops gun" and that one of the shots from the cop was evidently fired inside the car....of course, the witness says the dead kid was never INSIDE the car, and we don't know whether the shot in the car was the first or the last out of the gun....My money is that it was fired after the bullets that killed the kid, but I am cynical that way.


    by jollyroger on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 2:45pm

    An image that stands out from Katrina was when NOLA PD officers were in vehicles and pointing rifles at a crowd of hungry, unarmed Blacks. General Honore came upon the scene and ordered the police to lower their weapons to the cheers of the crowd. Many do not feel that the first act that will be performed by police is to protect and serve.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 1:38pm

    Yes this is the problem. While filming cops is legal in many states the ex judicial punishment at a minimun is arrest and several hours in jail before being released without charges. If one is not sufficiently humble and submissive one is likely to be beaten or charged with resisting arrest. The police are likely to face no consequences for this illegal behavior.

    It happens all the time.


    by ocean-kat on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 2:30pm

    I saw it on NBC Nightly News, who was acting in an unlawful manner, when they burned and looted the stores of innocent victims.   

    Why would anyone want to serve and protect in neighborhoods where the neighbors could turn against their neighbors in a second.

    Screaming  “give us our rights”  while they take away others  

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watts_Riots

    http://crdl.usg.edu/events/watts_riots/?Welcome

    If some can't respect personal property what makes anyone think they'll respect authority.

    Do these protests give cover, for those who would act unlawfully?   

     

     


    by Resistance on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 3:24pm

    Sigh.

     

    I know this is an open thread, but by the Precious  Blood of the Sweet Baby Jesus, I implore you, direct your attention to the topic, which is the disappearance of video streams documenting the events in question.

     

    If you wish to explore the wider question of good governance and ghetto policing, why not start your own thread.

     

    I don't believe you intend a hijack, I think you just get excited and type under the influence of dangerously elevated adrenal gland output.


    by jollyroger on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 4:02pm

    which is the disappearance of video streams documenting the events in question.

    What? You don't like the video showing the looters? You'd rather the whole scenario remain one sided?  All Peaceful, law abiding citizens?  


    by Resistance on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 6:49pm

    The police are preventing the public from seeing their misdeeds. Show the looters and the police abuse. The police are making things one-sided.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 7:38pm

    This is typical of the right wing,  focus on the few law breakers instead of the hundreds or thousands of peaceful protestors as a means to disparage the movement as a whole. Its a position totally lacking in understanding or nuance. I've noticed that this same focus doesn't exist when right wing protestors break the law. Then the right wingers excuse any amount of law breaking and destruction of property even including murder as not indicative of the movement as a whole. For example when a some anti abortion activists destroy health care facilities or murder doctors and nurses their behavior is excused as an aberration even though large percentages of the anti abortion crowd have encouraged such behavior and protected the criminals from law enforcement.


    by ocean-kat on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 5:43pm

    Federal agents faced a tax dodger with loaded weapons and no one died . Strange that unarmed Black men don't have the same type of luck with police forces.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 5:51pm

    Seeming good news -- command there has been replaced and the guy in charge is making a show of changing the tone of the police response.  But, as Doc Cleveland says above, the real test is not just how the situation is immediately changed and handled but how many civil rights violators are effectively investigated and prosecuted as well as how many of those in command are fired.


    by Michael Maiello on Thu, 08/14/2014 - 8:28pm

    Policing is better than occupying. A calm night in Ferguson, Missouri

     

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/ferguson-protests-policing_n_56...


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 7:58am

    Thank you for this. This shatters Resistance's viewpoint that the SWAT teams were necessary. The SWAT teams encourage the very violence they are sent to protect against.


    by Verified Atheist on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 8:28am

    Quite the contrary;  Extremist or even home grown anarchists, could just as easily flock to one of these disturbances and cause considerable damage.

    Assassinated by a camera crew

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Shah_Massoud

    Then you bleeding hearts would cry out  "Where were the police"

    It is really hard to fix stupid   laugh


    by Resistance on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 1:39pm

    It is really hard to fix stupid

    Self-reflection on your part?

    Ferguson police department possesses heavy artillery. They used this artillery after having provoke the community by not explaining why the murder victim was initially approached by police. They followed the death by withholding the name of the involved officer, a move that did not elicit a feeling of trust. This was followed by pictures of an uncovered body in the street for hours. There was the appearance of stonewalling.

    There are techniques that police can use to soften the mood of a crowd. The Ferguson police fueled the flames that caused an angered community to explode. This was boldly demonstrated by the calm that came with a police commander who applied reason rather than force. Calm followed. We saw police work rather than jack-booted thugs.

    If your concern about  a government that is willing to ride roughshod over citizens, you should be terrified by an inept Ferguson police force that possesses an armed, armored vehicle and assault weapons. They are capable of inciting unrest and then gunning down citizens complaining about police overreach.


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 2:41pm

    As rmrd pointed out, we were already crying "Where were the police?" What we were seeing instead was a paramilitary force.


    by Verified Atheist on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 2:56pm

    Macho toys for police departments everywhere, thanks to the Pentagon's 1033 program.  (No surprise to me that Resistance's buddy Sheriff Joe Arpaio is the top recipient.) For some reason, I am reminded of Hunter S. Thompson and one of his favorite memes: "fear and loathing." Watch out for those Pumpkin Festivals, they're dangerous:

    [....] In its first year, the military transferred about $1 million worth of equipment. Since then, the 1033 program has transferred more than $4.3 billion in equipment. Last year, it gave away close to a half-billion dollars' worth of equipment to local law enforcement, according to a June report from the American Civil Liberties Union.

    While some say the program helps cash-strapped local forces, others argue that sending small communities a cache of weapons may not be the best idea.

    The police chief in Keene, N.H., for example, requested an armored vehicle to patrol the town’s “Pumpkin Festival and other dangerous situations,” according to a report in The Economist. Keene has a population of around 23,000. 

    Authorities in Fargo, N.D., asked the government for, and received, an armored personnel-carrier with a rotating turret.

    The sheriff’s department in Montgomery County, Texas, owns a pilotless surveillance drone similar to the kind the military uses to track terrorists in the tribal regions of Pakistan.

    According to the ACLU report, Arizona has received the largest collection of weapons to date. The Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office was gifted 10 helicopters, five armored vehicles and 120 assault rifles, according to the ACLU report.


    by artappraiser on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 9:22pm

    Rise of the Warrior Cop. An interview with Radley Balko who wrote the book.

    http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/rise-warrior-cop-2

     

     

     

     


    by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 9:50pm

    Watching clips of the press conferences held separately by the Ferguson police chief and the State Police captain, one gets the impression that the chief wants to be able to use his Tinker Toy tank and police batons to bash some heads.

    The chief released inflammatory footage from a robbery and then told reporters that the robbery had no connection to the shooting of Michael Brown.This disconnect can only serve to make the Black community feel that the Ferguson police were engaged in a smear campaign to divert attention from a dead unarmed Black man.

    Later in the day, the chief "clarified" his remarks by stating that the officer involved in the shooting noticed a box of cigars that could have been the ones stolen in the robbery. By continuing to open his mouth, the chief emits a heavy cloud of halitosis. He should let the State Police captain inform the media and the public.

    Edited to add a link noting the Ferguson police chief's evolving story

    http://www.thewire.com/national/2014/08/ferguson-police-to-release-the-n...


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 10:15pm

    Here's another data point on the Ferguson police.


    by Verified Atheist on Fri, 08/15/2014 - 5:05pm

    Michael Brown was a suspect in a strong-arm robbery, but the police officer who killed Brown did not know that Brown was thought to be involved in a robbery. Brown was stopped for "walking in the middle of the street".

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/08/15/ferguson-missouri-p...


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