Michael Maiello's picture

    Common Sense About Making Fun of Islam

    When 12 people die violently and needlessly and a newspaper essayist doesn't have a lot of time to process events, things get said.  In The Financial TimesTony Barber gave us this:

    This is not in the slightest to condone the murderers, who must be caught and punished, or to suggest that freedom of expression should not extend to satirical portrayals of religion. It is merely to say that some common sense would be useful at publications such as Charlie Hebdo, and Denmark’s Jyllands-Posten, which purport to strike a blow for freedom when they provoke Muslims.

    The sentiment here is well-meaning.  The offending paragraph shows up late in the article after the author takes several attempts to explain that he will not be defending the Charlie Hebdo murderers and Barber goes back to that line in his concluding paragraphs.  Barber also has a lot to say about the role of Frances 5 million Muslims in post-Colonial French society.  He also warns, smartly, that we don't yet know who the attackers were.

    Still, this call for "common sense" of satirical restraint would surely give Thomas Paine an instant migraine.  Or, to call on a contemporary, what must BIll Maher think of this?  He was widely criticized for singling out Muslims for reacting to criticism and taunts with violence. The typical response to Maher from the left was #notallmuslims and, hey, that's true.  Not all by a long shot.  But if the Charlie Hebdo murders were another example of Muslim terrorism and an extension of the Danish cartoon flap of 2011 and the response from otherwise well-meaning thinkers is, "maybe satirists shouldn't provoke certain people," then we've tumbled into the realm of the totally absurd.

    Not to mention the contradiction here.  If the Western Liberal view is that Islam is a peaceful religion then what are we worried about provoking?  If the reality is that part of it are so sick and deranged that provoking them with drawings results in 12 deaths, then the religion is due every criticism it has coming to it and more.

    Some Muslims have made the ridiculous demand that non-believers adhere to their rules about what constitutes blasphemy.  No common sense approach to the problem on the part of non-believers would result in their actually acquiescing to such a request.  But that is exactly where Barber's common sense would lead us.

    Topics: 

    Comments

    I think it is a mistake to try to make this attack appear to be only about cartoons, I think it was a reprisal for French bombing Muslims in the ME and the target was one of convenience.

    These cartoons seem to be designed for local consumption to drive xenophobic and Islamophobic reactions and gain support for intervention.


    That's not how The New Yorker is describing the content (or even the discontent).


    The attacks will drive much more intervention than the cartoons could ever have achieved. And the attackers know that.


    Mocking those people is right and just. Indeed, it is morally necessary.

    the hateful and violent fear being mocked, and that is exactly why they should be.

    in related news, Kim Song-Un is a stunted little sex gerbil of a man.


    That's so unfair and simply not true. Kim Jong-Un is the sexiest man alive.


    Of course... Another "I don't condone this but he had it coming..." That is condoning.


    The cartoons published by the French magazine will now go viral and more outlets will begin publishing cartoons and articles satirizing Muhammad. 


    Well said, Mike. What you've said here really is the inescapable conclusion that must be reached if we accept our own principles. 


    La seule chose qui doit etre dit:

    nous sommes tous charlie


    A street magician in Syria beloved by children was beheaded by militants with the Islamic State group after his performances were deemed to be insulting to God, the Daily Mirror reported Wednesday.

    The murder of the magician, who was known as “Sorcerer,” was called “barbarism and butchery” by a Syrian activist who knew him but fled to safety in nearby Turkey....

    (Reuters) - A fighter of the Islamic State militant group praised Wednesday's attack on a French satirical magazine....“These are our lions. It’s the first drops — more will follow,” he said, speaking via an Internet connection from Syria. He added that he and his fellow fighters were happy about the incident. “Let these crusaders be scared because they should be.”....


    The French are now shooting up mosques and burning down kabob shops to prove to the world that they are an advanced and civilized race. This terrorist attack will not deter them from bombing women and children in their crusade to civilize the heathens of the ME. If these heathen Muslims would only submit and defer to the Crusader there would be peace on earth and prosperity for all. Resistance is futile as the last 100 years has shown so accept your low position Muslims or suffer the consequences.


    Pierre: Je ne suis pas Charlie!


    Submit and defer to the crusader?  You are joking, right? At least Michel Houellebecq knows who is asking submission from who.


    Who is responsible for the rise in Islamophobia? by Murat Askoy for Today's Zaman

    His summary

    ...The only way to really overcome all of this is to avoid turning a religion, such as Islam, into material for politics. Likewise, legitimacy for political practices needs to be rooted not in religion but in mandates from social pluralism. Religion must be left in the civilian arena and not taken up by the state. It is ultimately the respect for people who are different from you that will allow a country to transcend Islamophobia. In other words, the key to this all lies in having a secular state, one in which the state is equally objective with all believers and non-believers.

    If you wish to avoid wars of civliizations, Peter, you're definitely on the wrong team with your support of ISIS. They seek to ramp it up, just like Islamaphobes do.


    BTW, do you have a source for these French counter attacks?  I don't see them being reported on anywhere...


    there's just been some coming out now

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11332467/Paris-s...

    but I think he was referring to anti-Muslim violence in recent weeks if I recall correctly. Thing is, I also read about a lot of support demonstrations by non-Muslim French afterwards. And there's this: anti-Jewish activity in France has ramped up a lot.  It's a tinderbox of religious based animosity.

    I put a lot of blame on their speech laws! They talk free speech but they have a lot of hate speech laws.I think hate speech lets off steam. Our founders understood this because they were damn angry.

    Blasphemy should not mean death. That makes people quietly hate Muslims (or whoever else might enforce such a law) and stew and stew about it. It's a vicious circle problem. You let the steam off and you know who the haters are, you can watch them. You don't let them steam, they go underground, you don't know what they are thinking. End of story.


    oops, I think now it was Sweden I was thinking about

    In Sweden, the Land of the Open Door, Anti-Muslim Sentiment Finds a Foothold, NYT,Jan.2

    ....On Friday, hundreds of Swedes gathered outside the royal palace in Stockholm and in other cities to show solidarity with the Muslim population a day after an unknown assailant threw a bottle filled with flammable liquid at a mosque in the northern city of Uppsala and sprayed racist slogans on the building. The firebomb caused no injuries and did not damage the building....

    Swedes, French, all the same thing! cheeky


    The point about all the hate speech laws in Europe definitely stands, though.  That Houllebecq actually had to stand trial is ridiculous, even though he won and even though such events are incredibly effective for marketing literature.


    Time, CBS, Daily Mail, the Telegraph and other news media are reporting on these incidents.


    The head of Hezbollah in Lebanon notes that those who perform beheadings and commit mass murder do more harm to Islan than any cartoon.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/09/nasrallah-cartoons_n_6443530.html

    Edit to add:

    When the Nazis occupied Paris and hunted Jews, the Grand Mosque of Paris provided sanctuary.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Mosque-Paris-Holocaust/dp/0823423042


    rmrd0000:

    Jonathan Chait here is making an argument that might interest you; the excerpt:that caught my eye:

    ....Vulgar expression that would otherwise be unworthy of defense becomes worthy if it is made in defiance of violent threats. Bustillos assails Douthat by pointing out various times when he has criticized vulgarity, neglecting even to consider the distinction that forms the entire core of his argument.

    Greenwald and Sacco make the same analytic error, and throw in references to various Western misdeeds against Muslims in Iraq and elsewhere. This is the sort of moral distraction it is common to find when a person believes the wrong kinds of victims are being celebrated or the wrong kinds of perpetrators decried. (Greenwald: “the west has spent years bombing, invading and occupying Muslim countries and killing, torturing and lawlessly imprisoning innocent Muslims, and anti-Muslim speech has been a vital driver in sustaining support for those policies.”) It’s the same impulse driving conservatives to turn cases of police brutality into meditations on black-on-black crime. That is that; this is this....


    Thanks for the link. The murdering brothers killed a a Muslim police officer, Jewish people, and a policewoman from the Carribbean. Apparently both Al-Queda and ISIS want credit for the murders unaware that the murderers have brought people together in their hatred of the acts performed in the name of Islam.

    Apparently Muhammad was ridiculed by opponents during his lifetime. He never sanctioned murder because he felt his view of religion  would be vindicated in the end.

    http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/08/does-islam-prohibit-images-of-mohammed-n


    I saw a Muslim guy on CNN yesterday who said that Islam is no more conducive to terror than other religions. While he made some valid points, he also made some strained analogies.

     He cited the Crusades and the Thirty Years War as examples of Christian-inspired bloodlust. If you have to go back centuries to find a Christian parallel to what Muslims are doing today, you aren't making much of a case.

     He noted that the mass murderer in Norway also said he was doing it for God. But the Norwegian psycho wasn't part of a movement, and there aren't millions of Christians who applaud what he did. There are millions of Arabs/Muslims who support terrorism.

     The guy also said that the "vast majority" of Muslims oppose terrorism. This survey--which may now be outdated--supports this view, although I wonder what the answers would have been if the pollsters had asked specifically "do you approve or disapprove of attacks on Israeli civilians"?


    If you have to go back centuries to find a Christian parallel to what Muslims are doing today, you aren't making much of a case.

    Thank you!

    Similarly, I don't get the rhetorical appeal of bringing up things like "the tragedy of Andalusia" in 1492 for those that have that habit.


    "The Tragedy of Andalusia?"  Thomas Kyd, right?


    nah, Jihadi Central. Holy war then, holy war now, holy war fuhever...
     


    since we're basically talking about the strange appeal of a certain strange kind of "P.R".here, this is one of my all time favs:

    "I advise you to raise your children in the cult of jihad and martyrdom and to instil in them a love for religion and death," ~ Zawahiri's wife commenting as regards the "Arab spring" in 2008

    ah, first thing I think of when I hear the word spring: martyrdom! death brings hope!


    Death springs eternal!


    Yes. While it's true that Islam is no more conductive to terror that any other religion and at one time Christianity was a horror, Christianity though still in many ways regressive, has changed for the better and Islam has changed for the worse. The influence of many secular and humanist trends have forced Christians to moderate many of their most violent and oppressive views. Islam hasn't gone through this and the secularists in Muslim countries mostly don't have the power to force that change on Islam.

    Bill Maher is right when he says we must be honest about this and confront Islamic views. To address the current case discussed here. When majorities of Muslims believe that the death penalty is a proper punishment for blasphemy they give validation and comfort to those who carry out ex judicial killings for blasphemy, even if those same Muslims would not carry out the killings themselves or are horrified when they occur. The most common rebuttal made to Maher is that he's lumping all Muslims into a group, that it is not all Muslims. This rebuttal is nonsense. When Maher cites a survey that states that 70% of Muslims believe the death penalty is the proper punishment for blasphemy he is explicitly saying its not all Muslims. He's explicitly saying that 30% do not believe in the death penalty for blasphemy..


     


    Oops, I forgot to put up the link. Call me a silly. Here it is: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf


    You don't have to go back more than a day to see Crusader forces killing Muslims, the bombs are falling as we write our opinions and condemn the Other for resisting. They cannot resist our bombers but they can bring the war back to the Crusader Homeland in a small but frightening way.

    The reaction in the West will follow the usual reactionary path with all people loosing rights and increased killing in the ME, this is all we know how to do being violent antidemocratic Imperialists.

    I do have sympathy for the moderate {tame} Muslims who are trying to protect the Muslim minorities in Europe from the inevitable xenophobic backlash that is developing.


    Can you point to the passages that call for the death penalty for blasphemy? Isn't God strong enough not to be hurt a "jot" by blasphemy?


     Peter's sympathies don't seem to only be with moderate Moslems; he seems to have an affinity for ISIS. Islamic psychos are always "resisting the imperialists", not "trying to impose their murderous, medieval theocracy on people who don't want it".

     I don't think the motivation for the bombing of ISIS is religious, so I doubt "Crusade" is the right word for it.


    You don't have to go back centuries - you can look at the Brits killing off the Iraqi "wogs" in the 20s for that great oil stash (read Churchill); overthrowing the freely elected Mossadegh to get at that oil stash, and now taking liberties with civilian collateral damage in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya & Syria because 19 Saudis provoked us 13 years ago. And then feeding in weapons where we don't want to fight - do those proxy battles. Oh, yeah, our quaint black sites/rendition zones where we can have others torture for us so we can pretend to keep the values we used to have. Yeah, we're doing all this for a movement - the "US exceptionalism" movement - the "they're all violent but we're just trying to maintain the peace" movement. So our generals clutch their crosses "privately", while some jackasses have a religious army while ours is just "personal choice"...


    How about charity? 

    Sure  Charlie Hebdo was within its rights to publish those cartoons . And should have been protected by the Government.And it could also, if they felt like it, have made fun of cripples, or the retarded.

    And shouldn't have done it. Not because they were afraid of retribution. But because they were going to make some of their fellow human being unhappy

     


    Political cartoonists job is to make their fellow human beings happy..?....or at least not so unhappy that the melancholy massacre a roomful of 'their fellow human beings' with machine guns? Got it.


    If the South Park people thought that way, where would we be now?

    There's no such thing as victimless humor.


    You got me thinking strange myself: the serious downsides of extremely polite societies have made for a lot of great literature.cheeky Not that it has anything to do with this thread....


    another got me thinking, boy, you are inspiring me, today:

    Book of Mormon handled this whole thing so well! right on the edge...


    Flavius immediately reminded me of...


    I. did. laugh. I'm going to hell (once properly instilled, Catholic guilt never leaves one-how bout them apples, Mrs. Zawahiri? Hey, does that mean I get martyr creds for secularism?)


    High school humor used to feature a heavy concentration of "amusing" insults of the opposition. Probably still does. Here's a very old Prairie Home Companion  example of the genre.

    We are sexy and we are rich

    you're our best friends

    Don't you wish.

    We're having a party,

    Lot's of fun

    There'll be dancing

    ..............

    You can't come. 

    When we got to be 16 or 17 that kind of thing mostly faded. Fortunately.

    But then reappeared with the likes of Charlie Hebdo . With some superb  talent focussed on   the intention to annoy/infuriate the target audience.

     Yes,of course  the murders were completely indefensible.

    .But, separate question:  why  run the cartoons in the first place? At best  " Funny as a crutch".is the phrase that springs to mind. 

    At worst ..well we saw the worst.   

     .                                                                                                           

     

     


    I'm in the art world, Flav, I know entities like Charlie are basically "trolls." The art world knows it, too. That's part and parcel of art that's not just for entertainment or aesthetic enjoyment, To be trollish, but more so. Not just trolling, but trying to change people's thinking, rile them, irrirate them....

    Craft is polite .Art since at least the early 20th century is more often not polite. It can be real crass, yeah blatantly so.

    To see it from a different angle, this event has become a frigging cri de coeur in the art world, They are just mad as hell and not going to take it anymore, not going to be more polite but are steeled for a metaphorical fight, going to ramp it up.

    Here's just the most recent article I've read for an example

    Why the Killing of Charlie Hebdo Cartoonists Will Make Art Stronger

    artnet.com, Jan. 8

    Last night, a popular Banksy Instagram account posted the image of a pencil which, broken today, turns into two sharper pencils tomorrow....

    It really is a situation of "we are all Charlie, and we will not stand for self-censoring or all is lost"

    One ironic part of this tragedy is that the one perp at one time was an aspiring rap artist...


    Are these anguished artists going to airdrop Banksy into Mosul to show these Jihadis that they can't take our Freedoms without a fight. What kind of culture would we have if we didn't' support racist artists who depict Black leaders as monkeys and Arabs as hooked nosed, robed extremists?

    No one deserves to die for their art but as I stated earlier this attack was not about offensive degrading attack art it is about a Crusader War and the political position some of these artists proudly displayed..


    this attack was not about offensive degrading attack art it is about a Crusader War

    Says you only. The attackers don't agree with you. Read the eyewitness reports. They said why they were doing it and who they wanted.to kill. It's clear as a bell.You're falling for your own propaganda and it contradicts the facts and it's just making you look stupid. Not only that, people like them would kill people with your propaganda habits n a hearbeat if they didn't happen to like your propaganda stylings.They were actually going after people just like you.


    I think Peter might be the underground Resistance.


    Myself, I've always suspected Peter is Oleeb gone underground. SAMO agitprop, sometimes a near match. But then, that whole school of agitprop is quite common on the internets, it's almost like they've got one of the language generator thingies like the one for Pomo.

    Role play? I dunno. Oleeb certainly was passionate enough not to be doing role play.


    Your own quote at 8:26 contradicts this ' Says You Only', Harith al Wadhari states " Stop your aggression against Muslims"

    The target of this attack was just a symptom of the violent Crusader mentality not the cause of the War Of Civilizations that is coming.

    Your last two sentences seem to be a passive-aggressive attempt  to intimidate or just more Islamophobia, "people like them".


    P.S.There's a slideshow of some of the stronger "fight back" cartoons on topic at the link. Like this one:


     


    Oh, and here's one for people with your opinion, Flav:


    Fair comment.

     

     


     

    AA your is an abuse of the Light 


    Well, I guess we should tell those radicals at South Park to lay off as well - pushing the envelope...

    Hebdo attacked everyone with equal viciousness, but certainly nothing like the extreme obnoxiousness of snuff-rape-war-porn of Larry Flynt, nor the brutality of ISIS gangs that hack people's heads off or abortion protestors that bomb and shoot people, or those American conservatives who regularly preach turning the Middle East into glass and then pump up the campaign contributions to send in bombers to do it.

    Hebdo didn't make the French overthrow the Libyan government for their oil payout - Hebdo, you might be surprised to find out, didn't even have their own army or even arms cache, much less full contingent of NATO weaponry.

    Hebdo it appears was roughly the equivalent of a Sam Kinison or Andrew Dice Clay standup routine - or maybe not even, Don Rickles and Phyllis Diller. But grandma's got indigestion, so guess the boys should tone it down.

    #JeSuisCharlieMansonSoDealWithIt


    Every change that made the world a better place made some people unhappy and satirical cartoons played a  part in bringing about those changes. I don't know if Hebdo's cartoons were bitting satire or juvenile shock since I can't read the french captions. But I don't need to know since it's all protected free speech.

    The role that trolls of the art world, as AA called him, play is that by pushing the boundaries they create a larger safe space for the more powerful satirists to do their work.


    Great comment, ocean-kat. Your response got me thinking about we've already settled it in this country that you don't have to have any art or even significant purpose in the trolling at all. Pushing the boundaries, indeed, that's what Larry Flynt did:

    Hustler Magazine v. Falwell

    The actual cartoon was really the worst piece of stoopid adolescent garbage...

    And the Flynt case brings up that not only do they have hate speech laws in Europe, but they have stricter libel laws in many places too. Not that Allah is going to sue when he's been blasphemed...


    Credit to U.S. intel where due:

    Alleged Charlie Hebdo Shooters Were on US No-Fly List

    On the internets we're always bitching how stupid they are, and about the civil liberties abuses, but one has got to admit at the same time that we don't know how many times what they do stops something.You let the haters speak, but part of that deal has got to be that you watch 'em, too.. Same with all the haters, anti-abortion activists, Ku Klux Klan, etc.


    One was an Anwar al-Awlaki acolyte:

    Al Qaeda Trained Suspect in Paris Terror Attack, Official Says

    New York Times, Jan. 8, 2015

    WASHINGTON — One of the two brothers suspected of killing 12 people at a satirical newspaper in Paris traveled to Yemen in 2011 and received terrorist training from Al Qaeda’s affiliate there before returning to France, a senior American official said Thursday.

    The suspect, Saïd Kouachi, 34, spent “a few months” training in small arms combat, marksmanship and other skills that appeared to be on display in videos of the military-style attack on Wednesday carried out by at least two gunmen on the offices of the Charlie Hebdo newspaper.

    Both French and American officials were aware that Mr. Kouachi had trained in Yemen. He went there at a time when many other young Muslim men in the West headed to Yemen, inspired by Anwar al-Awlaki, the American-born cleric who by 2011 had become a senior operational figure for the terrorist group there, Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula [....]


    Whatever happened to ol' Anwar al-Awlaki anyway? Oh yeah, someone didn't like what he was saying and so decided to kill him.


    I saw your "ahem" comment, LULU, get the message and haven't forgotten all the old discussions and issues. Here's a summary of what matters on the topic at hand: You suspect Anwar al-Awkai was executed for speech/propaganda offenses. I don't suspect that at all.

    Why don't I suspect it at all? Because there's tons worse guys out there spewing worse stuff and Obama hasn't pulled the drone trigger on them. Supporting evidence for me is the way Awlaki obviously craftily used two disturbed humans as weapons: Farouk Abdulmutallab and Nidal Malik Hasan. I suspect that he was one evil dude plotting war against American civilians and not only that, doing it for power and ego reasons over any genuine concerns.

    It's a disturbing thing that American citizens were executed on foreign soil without trial, but who's fault is that? Nobody was forcing him to stay hiding in Yemen, letting his father have to stand in for his rights. It furthermore appears to me that he didn't want those rights, that he would spit on them, that he may have wished our framework of rights destroyed.

    Neither of us can know the answer for sure because of the nature of fighting terrorism, the facts can't be laid out. That's just the reality of our times. So it's no use debating it over and over. I just wanted to express why I am not with you on this, I don't think it's the same at all.


    You suspect Anwar al-Awkai was executed for speech/propaganda offenses. I don't suspect that at all.

    You have correctly identified where our conclusions differ. That said, I of course do not think that the forms of speech and the claimed intent are exactly the same. I was mostly noting the grievous affect of both. By that I am referring to the way that some person, or some group, chose to deal with the problem of the different examples of speech. In each case they chose to kill the speaker[s]. Al Alwakai may have been a major functionary but his function was as a recruiter through his power of speech. He, like most all war mongers, did not pick up a gun himself. His hands weren't clean but neither were they bloody, at least until his end.
     The cartoonists were, even if not deliberately, and even if doing so legally, pushing a mind-set already in place among some readers that stoked their anti-Muslim feelings. The cartoons insulted  Muslims, some of whom were radical in their beliefs and in their response. The cartoons made them feel justified or even obligated to respond.

     [I hate feeling it to be necessary to put in any disclaimer of, in any way, respecting or apologizing for the deadly way they responded, but there it is]  
     The cleric al Alwakai on the other hand was overtly calling for overt actions against his overtly identified enemy.  Al alwakai might have said, " Hey kid, you should join our jihad and fight for the Profit, for your country, and for fig pie and the Muslim way, you should go kill those who I tell you are our enemies and here is how you should do it".  In that way his speech was different but the resulting affect and then the resulting response to the speech was the same. Someone was offended or felt threatened and so decided that the affect or the intent of the speech was worth killing over with little regard for any innocents which may have surrounded him. And so the deed was done, he was assassinated.
     Al Alwakai was definitely involved in the conflict but his involvement used the very same weapon as did the cartoonists and that weapon was his speech. Whether or not he acted out of motives for power and ego reasons over any genuine concerns I cannot know. I certainly believe such venal motives exist among some of our own "leaders" and among some/most other leaders everywhere but I also believe that there are true believers of every possible stripe.
     Whether or not al Alwakai [or the cartoonists] crossed a moral or ethical line with the particulars of their speech depends on subjective cultural values. I have mine and they certainly aren't al Alwakai's. An example is that I think that calling for deadly responses is almost always wrong, but in that I am obviously at odds with much of my own culture.   Apparently some interpretations of the Koran believe such a response is called for in cases of religious insult. And Samurais, for another different example of different values held in high esteem by some, whether acting as hired guns as they sometimes did, or as devoted loyal followers as they sometimes were, believe that a sneak attack and a stab in the back is completely fair. At least I have been told that. People are fucked up in all kinds of ways.
     Whether or not al Awakai crossed a legal line that justified assassinating him is determined by arbitrary laws [all human enacted laws are arbitrary] which in his case and some other cases in the U.S. War on Terror, were sometimes deemed legal, and sometimes by ex post facto laws or after the fact legal justifications which went against previous custom, tradition, and legal interpretations. There was a blatant attempt to justify the assassination. Yes, I realize that is a big part of the debate which you do not wish to rehash and I also realize that there is little chance of changing your view if we were to do so.   
     The more I write the more I feel I have left out and am probably confusing my issue. The better alternative of stopping after my first paragraph would probably have been better.


    Eric McDavid was just released from jail after 9 years served for "eco-terrorism" when it was finally much belatedly revealed that the FBI had a 17-year-old embedded with his group egging them on to things they would never do on their own, and then covering up her role. [they hid 2500 pages of exculpating information - so much for FOIA & defense discovery]. The amount of bullshit the FBI and CIA have made up over the last 15 years is simply criminal, and yeah, somehow they're possibly protecting our freedoms in a way just like that cop choking the black victim to death somehow may have made the streets safer or made them much less safe, and it rather depends on a lot of finely parsed lines.

    But overall, I don't think an extra-judicial killing of Awlaki & his kid helped our democracy or war-on-terror much, whether the current anti-Hebdo asshole once touched Awlaki's frock or whatever his Vulcan mind control over his legion of followers is supposed to be. Because obviously the head of Iran said as bad of things about the US as Awlaki ever did, and he died peacefully in his bed, but that was at a time when we didn't have to chase every anti-American Muslim into a corner (while giving every anti-Muslim nutcake his/her own spot on Fox TV).  As for no-flight lists, I'm sure if we put 10,000 people on them with no review, 1 or 2 of those people will be bad people - not exactly the most efficient, humanitarian approach, but I guess if that's the mess we want to make of our "democracy", I'll have to live with the broken eggs.


    You suspect Anwar al-Awkai was executed for speech/propaganda offenses. I don't suspect that at all.

    Today "Democracy Now" with Amy Goodwin interviews Jerremy Scahill and they talk, amomg other things, about Anwar al-Awlaki. The show can be watched and listened to here. For more efficient use of bandwidth it can be listened to without video.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2015/1/12/jeremy_scahill_on_paris_attacks_the

    Also, there is a complete transcript available, just scroll down. I include a few excerpts below. I do not expect anybody to accept any journalists story uncritically any more than I would advise accepting politicians words uncritically but Scahill has a pretty good reputation for good reporting, I believe.

    Awlaki was clearly angered by the U.S. invasion of Iraq. He defended the right of the United States to go into Afghanistan to destroy al-Qaeda and denounced al-Qaeda as fake Muslims. This was all in the aftermath of 9/11. He was on NPR. He was profiled in The Washington Post. He was considered a legitimate part of the commentariat in the United States post-9/11, as a person who was brought on TV shows to make sense of the position of Muslims in the world post-9/11. And part of the reason he was invited on these media outlets is because he was condemning al-Qaeda. He was condemning the invasion of—or, excuse me, he was condemning the use of Afghanistan as a base to plot the 9/11 attacks.

    Then Iraq gets invaded. Then Abu Ghraib happens. Then we start to learn about CIA torture sites around the world. We start to see Muslim prisoners in orange jumpsuits with hoods being brought. Then there’s desecration of the Qur’an that happens. And you could see Awlaki becoming radicalized by these policies. And he goes back to Yemen, and basically didn’t know what he was doing with his life. He got involved with some real estate and other things. Then he starts—he basically starts using YouTube and the Internet as his online mosque. He already was known around the world for sermons he had recorded on CDs.
    And, you know, I listened to many, many, many, many days’ worth of Anwar al-Awlaki’s preaching. And up until the invasion of Iraq, there was very little that you could look at and say, "Oh, here’s a guy who is going to be very anti-American." In fact, Awlaki supported the war in Yugoslavia. He was on the same side as the United States in Bosnia. And, in fact, you know, Awlaki was calling for Muslims in the United States to fight the jihad against the Catholic forces of Croatia and the Orthodox Christian forces of Serbia, and he was on the same side as the United States.

     The U.S. then has Awlaki put in prison inside of Yemen for 18 months, where he was held in solitary confinement for 17 of those months. He was interrogated by the FBI while in that prison. And then, when he was released, he was a totally changed man.

    He was held in a political prison inside of Yemen, in Sana’a, Yemen. And, in fact, I reported in my book that when the Yemeni government wanted to release Awlaki, that John Negroponte, who at the time was a senior counterterrorism official under the Bush administration—and, of course, one of the butchers of Central America during the 1980s—John Negroponte had a secret meeting with Bandar Bush, the Saudi diplomat very close to the Bush family, where he—and the Yemeni ambassador, where John Negroponte said, "Our position is that we want Awlaki kept in prison until all of these young Western Muslims forget about him." This is a U.S. citizen who was being held in a prison in a human rights-violating country on very flimsy charges that he had intervened in a tribal dispute, and a senior official intervenes to say, "We want our citizen kept in your prison without any trial for five years, until people forget about him."

    When Awlaki eventually was released, he was a totally changed man and began increasingly to cross the line from praising people fighting against the United States, in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere, to actively calling on people to come and, as he put it, fight on the fronts of jihad in Yemen or elsewhere or in your own country. And this is where he really became considered to be a significant threat by the United States, that his words—not his actions, but his words—were going to inspire lone-wolf acts of terrorism inside of the United States. [My emphasis]

    And, you know, I listened to many, many, many, many days’ worth of Anwar al-Awlaki’s preaching. And up until the invasion of Iraq, there was very little that you could look at and say, "Oh, here’s a guy who is going to be very anti-American." In fact, Awlaki supported the war in Yugoslavia. He was on the same side as the United States in Bosnia. And, in fact, you know, Awlaki was calling for Muslims in the United States to fight the jihad against the Catholic forces of Croatia and the Orthodox Christian forces of Serbia, and he was on the same side as the United States. The U.S. was raising funds to arm Bosnian Muslims to fight in that war. They were on the—the U.S. was on the same side as Anwar al-Awlaki and Osama bin Laden in the war in Yugoslavia in terms of the position that they staked out on Bosnia.

    If all of this evidence that The New York Times and The Washington Post and CNN now today claim that the U.S. has had for a long time, why was there never an indictment on Anwar al-Awlaki? What did the president of the United States serve as judge, jury and executioner of an American citizen? Why did the United States advocate for a human rights-abusing government to have one of their citizens placed in prison for indefinite detention, when he hadn’t yet been charged with a crime by the United States?

    AMY GOODMAN: Well, what’s the answer?

    JEREMY SCAHILL: Well, I think that the U.S., on the one hand, was afraid of Awlaki’s words. They didn’t want to give him a platform in a trial.

    Scahill also addresses the issue of whether or not el Alwaki was involved operationally. He doesn't believe that he was.


    Very well written. I think the brutal nature of the crime has left an obvious, but very missed message: if a satirist, journalist or entertainer has made the choice to stand on principle and create the type of art that some may find offensive they had better be sure all of those around them feel the same way. The risks I might take doesn't necessarily represent the risks I would be comfortable making for those closest to me. 


    Charlie Hebdo staff vow to print 1m copies as French media support grows
    Writer for satirical magazine says ‘stupidity will not win’, as about €250,000 lined up from Google-backed fund to support publication

    guardian.com, 8. Jan., 2015

    Surviving staff members of Charlie Hebdo have vowed to publish the satirical weekly next Wednesday, despite the murder of most of its senior journalists – with a much larger than usual print run of 1m copies.

    Within 24 hours of the massacre of 12 people – including eight journalists – some €250,000 (£195,000) had been earmarked to support Charlie Hebdo by the Digital Press Fund, paid for by Google, to support the French press. French media groups including Le Monde, France Télévisions and Radio France, are also understood to be working on a plan to contribute a similar amount, urging other media outlets to join in offering humanitarian and financial support. ...


    Michael, I thought you or Doc might be commenting on Brooks latest column on the subject. I don't know enough about the University actions to supposedly "enforce speech codes" he references to dissect what he is saying. And Ann Coulter as "satirist"?


    I'd missed it.  Ann Coulter is a "satirist" when it suits her.  Or, when she gets into trouble she hides behind the shield of "I was kidding, get a grip."  But she ultimately means what she says. She is no satirist.

    I think it is true that Charlie Hebdo would not survive on a liberal college campus in the U.S.  In his totally awesome New York interview, Chris Rock says that he doesn't play college campuses anymore for that very reason -- they are "too conservative," he says, in what material they will tolerate.

    Of course, I'm annoyed that Brooks considers himself to be seated at the "adult table," as he calls it.  But I realize I am ultimately not going to like the food anywhere he is eating.


    Thanks. I see now that Brooks article was a setup piece in support of Alyaan Hirsi Ali, who seems to be a poster girl of Conservatives' rant machine on the "clash of civilizations" and that she is heartily promoted and defended by the Wall St. Journal, American Enterprise Institute, etc.  


    The subtlety of your take on Brooks piece here impresses me, Michael. And the ease at which you peg.it. That he's got an different agenda for his point which makes him build his argument a certain way should not distract from the legitimacy of his main point

    I hope one good that comes out of the continual buildup of terror attacks on "blasphemers" is that more college kids realize what they are doing when they protest against a speaker being heard rather than against what the speaker says..

    I will look upon your next satire on Brooks with a keener eye.


    Artsy, I was trying to be brief in my response to Michael because I wasn't familiar with the Brandeis incident and thought maybe you all had discussed it at length. I too recognize Michael's subtleties. enlightened

    In the event you guys didn't kick it to death already, and I am by no means an expert on University administration and culture, the Brandeis decision seems to be in a different category than college kids' protests in that they were going to give her an honorary degree.

    So one of the issues is whether giving this author (Scholar?) a degree isn't an absolute insult to an institution with serious scholarship on comparative religions---comparatively.

    One of my great dislikes is outside influences, like the Kochs, on academic institutions and when I reread the Brooks thing it seemed more in the spirit of that kind of meddling than a serious take on free speech on campuses.

    It will really anger me if this tragedy accrues to the sensationalist and militarists in the U.S.

    edit to add: I see that Brooks didn't actually mention Brandeis.


    I was being "brief" too in my own way. I wasn't thinking of any college incident in particular, there's been so many over a decade or so. They are often about I-P, but far from exclusively. I was picking up on Michael's Chris Rock citation, not at all thinking about Brandeis. More about the political correctness police on campuses thing than anything in particular. Didn't really matter about what politics are being policed.

    I didn't even think of the honorary degree situation, there I would agree it's something that goes beyond free speech issues.

    As to funding sources with agendas trying to influence a situation, I just don't see how it applies that much to a college campus situation. The kids and their faculty mentors are going to align with whoever they agree with when they are passionate enough about something to protest about it. Somebody trying to influence them is like water over the damn.


    the Rock interview Michael linked to is really worth quoting in the part that's very applicable to the whole thread, especially about self-censorship being an insidious, scary thing and how social media is related:

    What do you make of the attempt to bar Bill Maher from speaking at Berkeley for his riff on Muslims?3

    Well, I love Bill, but I stopped playing colleges, and the reason is because they’re way too conservative.

    In their political views?

    Not in their political views — not like they’re voting Republican — but in their social views and their willingness not to offend anybody. Kids raised on a culture of “We’re not going to keep score in the game because we don’t want anybody to lose.” Or just ignoring race to a fault. You can’t say “the black kid over there.” No, it’s “the guy with the red shoes.” You can’t even be offensive on your way to being inoffensive.

    When did you start to notice this?

    About eight years ago. Probably a couple of tours ago. It was just like, This is not as much fun as it used to be. I remember talking to George Carlin before he died and him saying the exact same thing.

    A few days ago I was talking with Patton Oswalt, and he was exercised about the new reality that any comedian who is trying out material that’s a little out there can be fucked by someone who blasts it on Twitter or a social network.

    I know Dave Chappelle bans everybody’s phone when he plays a club. I haven’t gone that far, but I may have to, to get an act together for a tour.

    Does it force you into some sort of self-censorship?

    It does. I swear I just had a conversation with the people at the Comedy Cellar about how we can make cell phones into cigarettes. If you would have told me years ago that they were going to get rid of smoking in comedy clubs, I would have thought you were crazy. 

    It is scary, because the thing about comedians is that you’re the only ones who practice in front of a crowd. Prince doesn’t run a demo on the radio. But in stand-up, the demo gets out. There are a few guys good enough to write a perfect act and get onstage, but everybody else workshops it and workshops it, and it can get real messy. It can get downright offensive. Before everyone had a recording device and was wired like fucking Sammy the Bull,4 you’d say something that went too far, and you’d go, “Oh, I went too far,” and you would just brush it off. But if you think you don’t have room to make mistakes, it’s going to lead to safer, gooier stand-up. You can’t think the thoughts you want to think if you think you’re being watched.


    Who should we blame if your neighbor takes a stick and excites a hive of killer bees and the neighbors within a six block area get severely stung?

    Should we blame the bees or the stupid one(s) that used a stick to incite the killer bees?  

    Back off, Charlie Hebdo, - these Islamist extremists kill 


    We need to expect a little more of people than we do bees.


    Expect to be disappointed.


    Wait, I know this one! Let me do it for you:

    And that's why (ta-dum!) we need the right to bear firearms!


    So unlike Clark Kent and Superman, you and Peter can be in the same room at the same time.


    Here's a toon that's a superb visual for those who think along the lines of Flavius on this:

    Even though I don't agree, it really gets one thinking.

    I don't know the actual source, I found it here @ grasscity.com, "the biggest counter culture community" (dopers) by googling.images.



    Al-Qaeda in Yemen threatens France with new attacks: SITE

    Washington (AFP) 1 hr. ago) - A top sharia official from Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) threatened France with fresh attacks following those at the Charlie Hebdo magazine and at a Jewish supermarket, SITE monitoring group said Friday.

    "It is better for you to stop your aggression against the Muslims, so perhaps you will live safely. If you refuse but to wage war, then wait for the glad tiding," Harith al-Nadhari was quoted saying in a video.

    He stopped short of claiming responsibility for the three days of Islamist bloodshed in France that left 17 people dead. [.....]

    "Some of the sons of France were disrespectful to the prophets of Allah, so a group from among the believing soldiers of Allah marched unto them, then they taught them respect and the limit of the freedom of expression," the AQAP official says [.....]

    Al Qaeda Source: AQAP Directed Paris Attack

    By Jeremy Scahill, The Intercept, Jan. 9, 2014

    UPDATED — A source within al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula has provided The Intercept with a full statement claiming responsibility for the attack against the offices of Charlie Hebdo in Paris....

    Al-Qaeda Group Claims Responsibility for Paris Terror Attack

    By Karl Vick, Time, Jan. 9, 2014

    An al-Qaeda affiliate in Yemen claimed responsibility late Friday for the deadly attack on a satirical newspaper in France this week, not long after French police killed the suspects to end a three-day manhunt.

    A statement provided to the Associated Press from the group al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) said “the leadership of AQAP directed the operations and they have chosen their target carefully.” The statement said the attack, which killed 12 people at the offices of the satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo, was intended as “revenge for the honor” of the Prophet Muhammad, the depiction of whom is forbidden by Islamic tradition [....]

     


     Anonymous vows to avenge Charlie Hebdo shootings with cyberattacks on Islamist websites .

    The Independent-9 hours ago

    Hacktivist group Anonymous has vowed to attack terrorist websites and social media accounts in revenge for the killing of Charlie Hebdo journalists.

    A Belgian offshoot of the group posted a video to the website “declaring war” against terrorist groups.

    In the message, in French and addressed to “Al Qaeda, Islamic State and other terrorists” in its description, the group says that it will take down the websites and social media accounts of terrorist groups.

    The group also posted a message to Pastebin, also in French and addressed to the “enemies of the freedom of expression”.

    The video is narrated by a man wearing the group’s distinctive Guy Fawkes mask [....]


    Anonymous has put up a "countdown to action" website with a star and crescent symbol, it's not just a case of one guy bloviating:

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/op-charlie-hebdo-anonymous-website-counts-down-possible-retribution-event-1482707


    Color me unconvinced that causing pain to the religious leads to all sorts of good things from the advance of science to a chicken in every pot.

    For myself , I formally ceased pretending to  be religious on my wedding day, because it seemed  wrong to contaminate that ceremony with a lie. 

    But I never switched to believing the various benefits announced above would somehow flow from  insulting those who continued to practice the faith I was formally leaving behind. My ship had sailed but  I waved a sorrowful  goodbye to the good folks left on the dock.

    ..   


    I'm always wary of anything Anonymous does. For me that starts with their Guy Fawkes masks symbol coming from V for Vendetta. People worshipping that movie as having a message for a world view makes me very uneasy..It's very nice that all the citizens in it came together to support blowing up the nasty fascist regime but it's also a martyrdom message and there's a lot of other disturbing things that happen in it that don't deserve romanticization. It's a very adolescent view of anarchism and revolution and that has some similarities to the appeal of jihadism.

    And Anonymous themselves, they do sek to "terrorize" in a small way.  A majority dislikes most of their targets and the harm of attacks is not physical so no one gets too up in arms. But this always comes to mind for me: First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Socialist.Then they came for...

    On religion, I know exactly what you mean about feeling dishonest about partaking. Same thing here. I like the rituals for life events, but in the back of my mind am always feeing guilty and hypocritical for participating..Not the least of which I feel I am dissing the true believers as I am there as a pretender (mostly, that's the problem, the mostly thing.)


    Alan Moore complained that there was no anarchism in the film version of V for Vendetta.


    New York Magazine's Daily Intelligencer: Very Bad Things category, Jan. 9: Saudi Arabia Is Giving a Blogger 1,000 Lashes for Insulting Islam


    Horrible. A "religious" practice that should be insulted.


    This argument has a twist to it I think might interest you, Michael:

    Why Self-Censorship of Controversial Artwork is Wrong


    Latest Comments